good reads
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Awesome atricles Dave!! I just skimmed them over my lunch break but can't wait to read them in further detail tonight. I like how the second article gets at zeo on how they claim to create an ULNS. When you look at what a natural ULNS numbers would really be, zeo can't come close (we don't even have the ability to measure our tanks nutrient levels that low without paying for expensive professional lab grade testing). I like portions of the zeo process and will be using various parts in my new build but in all reality it's just a bunch of expensive rediculous hype when you use the whole system. JMO.
Jeremy
Jeremy
Fishcrazy06
Reefing Addict
Wow Jeremy that kind of shocks me about your thoughts on the different parts of Zeo!
Eric
Eric
LOL!! I knew someone would come back with that response.
I like zeo. It has done wonders for my tank, however the very specific points that the author makes are very valid and entirely legitimate. The author does really bash zeo and makes it look terrible. That's disappointing that such a good article can be be brought down by such negativity but there are definatley some legitimate concerns about the zeo process including how and why it does what it does (both positive and negative).
I was actually banned from the zeo forum for continually asking those tough questions that nobody seemed to be able to explain(becuase they didn't know the answers - becuase there is no research and real answers available). I argued some very legitimate reasoning against very broad and truly pathetic responses I got from questions I posted and I essentially got banned becuase they got tired of hearing me disprove their theories or argue against their poor advice with legitimate factual advice and recommendations.
I feel as if I've learned enough about the zeo process to not be too heartbroken about being banned from their forum. LOL!! There are some very good portions of the zeo process that I very much like and there is REAL evidence to prove the action and effects of those portions. I'll definatley be implementing those portions of the process into my new system, but until there is more info about the various products and their true chemical and biological action, they're in the same category as snake oil for me. I dosed each and every one of the products and trust me they don't all do what they say they'll do. However, keep in mind that the basic 4 is a very structured part of the process with legitimate evidence to prove it's action and reaction by tank inhabitants, so it's not all bad. If a person just stuck with the basic four they could yeild spectacular results and be able to feed incredibly large amounts of food to their fish and corals while maintaining prisine water conditions. I'll be using my own version of the basic 4 dosing scheme becuase I'll have many other means of nutrient management that will allow me to achieve the same results except it'll be done more naturally and with less aggressiveness that the corals often respond negatively to.
Jeremy
OP
OP
customcolor
The coRal nuT
i was hoping to see that you have read those....i read them and your very right when zeo is not all that and a bag of chips.....acording to the readings...now to see your opion on it was nice to see! hech i even thought about neo zeo..
you got kicked out of the zeo threads....WOW!
you got kicked out of the zeo threads....WOW!
It was really rediculous too. I was arguing a legimite point indicating that advice that was being given was unproven, only theoretical, and there was far more literature contraindicating the point that one of the primary mods was trying to make. I wasn't going to back down becuase I had legitimate proof behind my reasoning and the mod didn't like that I was blatently showing that he was giving poor advice that wasn't backed up by any literature or studies (and in fact I was showing the exact opposite of what he was trying to suggest as good advice). He was made to look like he didn't know what he was talking about (becuase he didn't) and instead of admitting he was wrong and I was right, I got booted. Some people just can't take consturctive criticism. Of course when I'm trying to make a legitimate point and have proof to back it up I'm not going to back down either. Just my nature.
Jeremy
OP
OP
customcolor
The coRal nuT
what was the point your where trying to make about what part of zeo?
Oh what a story!!
I was arguing the G.Alexander about his routine, bland, and inconsiderate replies he posts when people ask questions and provide lots of details in hopes of some genuine and helpful replies.
I had posted a very detailed question regarding a problem I was having (You all know I'm never short on detail when I'm posting a response or question). I posted as much detail as I possibly could in the hopes that someone would take my efforts into consideration and give me a genuine response with some legitimate feedback to try and help me. After typing several pages trying to describe my situation and all the things I've tried to remedy the problem, the reply I got was: "check your salinity and check your potassium level".
I was slightly offened at that response, thinking that the great lengths I had already gone to fix the problem would indicate that checking something as simple as my salinity was a given. Regardless, I checked my salinity with my freshly calibrated electronic salinity monitor and freshly calibrated refractometer. I also posted pics of my potassium results which were confirmed to be just fine. The response I got after that was to check my salinity with a hydrometer and buy another KZ potassium test kit to confirm the one I had was reading accurately. After that I lost it!!!! I pointed out that I was quite frustrated with the lack of consideration he had taken to truly help with my situation and I pointed out (with links to threads) that his response nearly every time someone posts up with a problem is "check your salinity and potassium level".
Since he had told me once before to buy a second K+ kit to confirm accuracy, I had to take another shot and told him that if he was so concernced with the accuracy of the KZ potassium kits then maybe he should bring that up with Thomas Pohl and explain how inaccurate his kits are. I then explained that I wasn't going to buy a hydrometer to check my salinity with a third method (of which is less accurate than the first two I used) and went on discussing that even if I had a slight salinity fluctuation it isn't a detrimental event that would even remotely be related to the problem I was having. I quoted several links to articles by Eric Borneman showing how natural reefs had significant salinity fluctuations, of which weren't always routine or limited to small increments, and showed that Eric had performed extensive studies showing that the inhabitants of reef microcosms (our aquariums) had nearly identical responses as natural reefs to similar salinity fluctuations (which is virtually no negative reaction at all). I also went on to quote several articles that were provided to me by Mike Greenmeier (greenbean) to again confirm that salinity fluctuations were nothing to be feared and were a rediculous response to the possible cause of my particular problems. I proved him wrong in every aspect of his arguement and instead of admitting I was right (with studies to prove it) he chose to ban me instead. Guess his way of winning a debate is to delete the person that is proving him wrong.
I was so frustrated I didn't quit there. I created a new e-mail and new username on the zeo forum and had one last poke. I posted on another thread in which he had given the same pathetic advice and told the person with the question that if he wanted a genuine response to the problem he had, he would get a better answer from the beginners on the RC beginner forum. That was pretty much the end of that. LOL!!! I then had my IP adress blocked from every computer I ever logged onto the zeo forum with (I checked several computers).
I'm a passionate person and when I'm discussing detailed info on reefing I'm entirely open for helpful suggestions, but insulting me with his rediculous and inconsiderate responses lit my fire. I had a tough time keeping my cool after the continued insults to my intelligence.
Don't get me wrong, there are helpful people on the zeo forum and I don't want to turn anyone away; however, unless your asking a question very specific to zeo, then the forum isn't very helpful - IMO. There are some very nice people on there and I regret my arguement with G.Alexander because they were nice people to discuss the zeo process with. Fortunately there is definately nothing that I could learn about there that I couldn't find info about elswhere (and I won't continually get suggestions to check my salinity and potassium levels from the resources I frequent). LOL!!!
Jeremy
I was arguing the G.Alexander about his routine, bland, and inconsiderate replies he posts when people ask questions and provide lots of details in hopes of some genuine and helpful replies.
I had posted a very detailed question regarding a problem I was having (You all know I'm never short on detail when I'm posting a response or question). I posted as much detail as I possibly could in the hopes that someone would take my efforts into consideration and give me a genuine response with some legitimate feedback to try and help me. After typing several pages trying to describe my situation and all the things I've tried to remedy the problem, the reply I got was: "check your salinity and check your potassium level".
I was slightly offened at that response, thinking that the great lengths I had already gone to fix the problem would indicate that checking something as simple as my salinity was a given. Regardless, I checked my salinity with my freshly calibrated electronic salinity monitor and freshly calibrated refractometer. I also posted pics of my potassium results which were confirmed to be just fine. The response I got after that was to check my salinity with a hydrometer and buy another KZ potassium test kit to confirm the one I had was reading accurately. After that I lost it!!!! I pointed out that I was quite frustrated with the lack of consideration he had taken to truly help with my situation and I pointed out (with links to threads) that his response nearly every time someone posts up with a problem is "check your salinity and potassium level".
Since he had told me once before to buy a second K+ kit to confirm accuracy, I had to take another shot and told him that if he was so concernced with the accuracy of the KZ potassium kits then maybe he should bring that up with Thomas Pohl and explain how inaccurate his kits are. I then explained that I wasn't going to buy a hydrometer to check my salinity with a third method (of which is less accurate than the first two I used) and went on discussing that even if I had a slight salinity fluctuation it isn't a detrimental event that would even remotely be related to the problem I was having. I quoted several links to articles by Eric Borneman showing how natural reefs had significant salinity fluctuations, of which weren't always routine or limited to small increments, and showed that Eric had performed extensive studies showing that the inhabitants of reef microcosms (our aquariums) had nearly identical responses as natural reefs to similar salinity fluctuations (which is virtually no negative reaction at all). I also went on to quote several articles that were provided to me by Mike Greenmeier (greenbean) to again confirm that salinity fluctuations were nothing to be feared and were a rediculous response to the possible cause of my particular problems. I proved him wrong in every aspect of his arguement and instead of admitting I was right (with studies to prove it) he chose to ban me instead. Guess his way of winning a debate is to delete the person that is proving him wrong.
I was so frustrated I didn't quit there. I created a new e-mail and new username on the zeo forum and had one last poke. I posted on another thread in which he had given the same pathetic advice and told the person with the question that if he wanted a genuine response to the problem he had, he would get a better answer from the beginners on the RC beginner forum. That was pretty much the end of that. LOL!!! I then had my IP adress blocked from every computer I ever logged onto the zeo forum with (I checked several computers).
I'm a passionate person and when I'm discussing detailed info on reefing I'm entirely open for helpful suggestions, but insulting me with his rediculous and inconsiderate responses lit my fire. I had a tough time keeping my cool after the continued insults to my intelligence.
Don't get me wrong, there are helpful people on the zeo forum and I don't want to turn anyone away; however, unless your asking a question very specific to zeo, then the forum isn't very helpful - IMO. There are some very nice people on there and I regret my arguement with G.Alexander because they were nice people to discuss the zeo process with. Fortunately there is definately nothing that I could learn about there that I couldn't find info about elswhere (and I won't continually get suggestions to check my salinity and potassium levels from the resources I frequent). LOL!!!
Jeremy
OP
OP
customcolor
The coRal nuT
salinity and potassium levels??? minor things as those 2 and zeo coes nuts? wow. i guess i should get a potassium kit...or 2 ..or 3 just to make shure 
so basic 4 and thats it...cool..thats all i was going to try any way.
so basic 4 and thats it...cool..thats all i was going to try any way.
salinity and potassium levels??? minor things as those 2 and zeo coes nuts? wow. i guess i should get a potassium kit...or 2 ..or 3 just to make shure
so basic 4 and thats it...cool..thats all i was going to try any way.
Yeah. The basic 4 at lower doses than recommended (like half the dose and then adjust from there) and you'll have a good means of nutrient management.
Jeremy
