I would base your return pump on your sump size. 12oogph is way too much flow through a 20 gal. sump. You will be lucky if you can get 10 gallons in that sump without overflowing if the return pump is turned off. Over 100x flow in the sump is a very bad idea. Can you get a bigger sump?
GPH for 120 gallon reef tank
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Great Point!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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With that said my Red Sea - Sicce is a 1800 gallon an hour pump. When I totally clean out the sump and I do.
It takes exactly 16 gallon of new salt water to make it right again.
So that's an 1800 an hour pump and when it's off, there's a total of 16 gallon's in the sump.
mcarroll
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That's not really the way to go about it....that's guesswork-style.
You actually started on the right foot trying to figure out the correct pump and kinda got sidetracked on the idea of a controllable return pump. That's an option, but for the return it's not really the best option IMO.
- You know you have 120 gallons of display tank, so that sets your desired flow rate. Anything between 240 GPH (2x) and 480GPH (4x) will do it, roughly speaking. (And that's actual flow – not the "flow rating" marked on a drain or pump box.)
- You know your tank is abour 4' high.
- We'll assume 5' of plumbing in total length.
- We'll assume that'll take two 90º elbows and that you're flexible about what plumbing size you choose.
With 3/4" plumbing:
Pressure Loss (psi): 0.6 Head Loss (ft): 1.3
Line Number:
Date: 1/2/2017
Nominal Pipe Size: 0.75
Pipe Schedule: SCH 40
Flow Rate (gpm): 8
Viscosity (cP): 1
Specific Gravity (water=1): 1.025
Temperature (F): 79
Pipe Roughness (ft): 0.000016
Actual Pipe ID (in.): 0.824
Fluid Velocity (ft/sec): 4.82
Reynolds Number: 31472
Flow Region: Turbulent
Friction Factor: 0.024
Overall K: 3.74
Piping Length (ft): 5
Short Radius Elbows: 2
Pipe Exit : 1
Line Number:
Date: 1/2/2017
Nominal Pipe Size: 0.75
Pipe Schedule: SCH 40
Flow Rate (gpm): 8
Viscosity (cP): 1
Specific Gravity (water=1): 1.025
Temperature (F): 79
Pipe Roughness (ft): 0.000016
Actual Pipe ID (in.): 0.824
Fluid Velocity (ft/sec): 4.82
Reynolds Number: 31472
Flow Region: Turbulent
Friction Factor: 0.024
Overall K: 3.74
Piping Length (ft): 5
Short Radius Elbows: 2
Pipe Exit : 1
With 1" plumbing:
Pressure Loss (psi): 0.2 Head Loss (ft): 0.5
Line Number:
Date: 1/2/2017
Nominal Pipe Size: 1
Pipe Schedule: SCH 40
Flow Rate (gpm): 8
Viscosity (cP): 1
Specific Gravity (water=1): 1.025
Temperature (F): 79
Pipe Roughness (ft): 0.000016
Actual Pipe ID (in.): 1.049
Fluid Velocity (ft/sec): 2.97
Reynolds Number: 24722
Flow Region: Turbulent
Friction Factor: 0.025
Overall K: 3.35
Piping Length (ft): 5
Short Radius Elbows: 2
Pipe Exit : 1
Line Number:
Date: 1/2/2017
Nominal Pipe Size: 1
Pipe Schedule: SCH 40
Flow Rate (gpm): 8
Viscosity (cP): 1
Specific Gravity (water=1): 1.025
Temperature (F): 79
Pipe Roughness (ft): 0.000016
Actual Pipe ID (in.): 1.049
Fluid Velocity (ft/sec): 2.97
Reynolds Number: 24722
Flow Region: Turbulent
Friction Factor: 0.025
Overall K: 3.35
Piping Length (ft): 5
Short Radius Elbows: 2
Pipe Exit : 1
With 1.5" plumbing:
Pressure Loss (psi): 0.03 Head Loss (ft): 0.1
Line Number:
Date: 1/2/2017
Nominal Pipe Size: 1.5
Pipe Schedule: SCH 40
Flow Rate (gpm): 8
Viscosity (cP): 1
Specific Gravity (water=1): 1.025
Temperature (F): 79
Pipe Roughness (ft): 0.000016
Actual Pipe ID (in.): 1.61
Fluid Velocity (ft/sec): 1.26
Reynolds Number: 16108
Flow Region: Turbulent
Friction Factor: 0.028
Overall K: 2.87
Piping Length (ft): 5
Short Radius Elbows: 2
Pipe Exit : 1
Line Number:
Date: 1/2/2017
Nominal Pipe Size: 1.5
Pipe Schedule: SCH 40
Flow Rate (gpm): 8
Viscosity (cP): 1
Specific Gravity (water=1): 1.025
Temperature (F): 79
Pipe Roughness (ft): 0.000016
Actual Pipe ID (in.): 1.61
Fluid Velocity (ft/sec): 1.26
Reynolds Number: 16108
Flow Region: Turbulent
Friction Factor: 0.028
Overall K: 2.87
Piping Length (ft): 5
Short Radius Elbows: 2
Pipe Exit : 1
Will look at pumps next post...
mcarroll
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Let's assume you have 3/4" return pumbing – that adds another foot and a half to your total vertical head pressure.
Total head pressure: 5.5 ft
Your next step is selecting a pump – hopefully your manufacturer puts out a flow curve to guide your choice. This is Sicce's for their Syncra Silent series:
5.5' = 1.8 meters
480 GPH = 1800 L/h
Sicce
From the chart, a Syncra 3.0 or 3.5 will deliver the flow you want. Choose the one that uses the least power, or fits the smallest space, or conforms to your plumbing better, or retails for less cost, etc.
Danner
From the chart here:
http://www.dannermfg.com/Store/images/instructions/ZG120.pdf
Danner would recommend the Mag 5 on the lowest end, but a Mag 7 would hit your 480 GPH number.
http://www.dannermfg.com/Store/images/instructions/ZG100.pdf
A 9.5 would be significant overkill, delivering between 700 GPH and 800 GPH. (around 6x-7x)
Look at the price of those pumps and the relative power usage, and it's not too hard to pick a right sized pump.
I just checked out aquacave, and the Sicce's mentioned go for either $88 or $110. They use 50 or 70 watts, respectively.
The Mags mentioned are $80, $90 or $120. They use 45, 70 and 93 watts, respectively.
Total head pressure: 5.5 ft
Your next step is selecting a pump – hopefully your manufacturer puts out a flow curve to guide your choice. This is Sicce's for their Syncra Silent series:
5.5' = 1.8 meters
480 GPH = 1800 L/h
Sicce
From the chart, a Syncra 3.0 or 3.5 will deliver the flow you want. Choose the one that uses the least power, or fits the smallest space, or conforms to your plumbing better, or retails for less cost, etc.
Danner
From the chart here:
http://www.dannermfg.com/Store/images/instructions/ZG120.pdf
Danner would recommend the Mag 5 on the lowest end, but a Mag 7 would hit your 480 GPH number.
http://www.dannermfg.com/Store/images/instructions/ZG100.pdf
A 9.5 would be significant overkill, delivering between 700 GPH and 800 GPH. (around 6x-7x)
Look at the price of those pumps and the relative power usage, and it's not too hard to pick a right sized pump.
I just checked out aquacave, and the Sicce's mentioned go for either $88 or $110. They use 50 or 70 watts, respectively.
The Mags mentioned are $80, $90 or $120. They use 45, 70 and 93 watts, respectively.
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Will the vectra M1 he wants an decided on work? I know u really like every company besides Ecotech but the M1 would be perfect for what he wants correct?Let's assume you have 3/4" return pumbing – that adds another foot and a half to your total vertical head pressure.
Total head pressure: 5.5 ft
Your next step is selecting a pump – hopefully your manufacturer puts out a flow curve to guide your choice. This is Sicce's for their Syncra Silent series:
5.5' = 1.8 meters
480 GPH = 1800 L/h
Sicce
From the chart, a Syncra 3.0 or 3.5 will deliver the flow you want. Choose the one that uses the least power, or fits the smallest space, or conforms to your plumbing better, or retails for less cost, etc.
Danner
From the chart here:
http://www.dannermfg.com/Store/images/instructions/ZG120.pdf
Danner would recommend the Mag 5 on the lowest end, but a Mag 7 would hit your 480 GPH number.
http://www.dannermfg.com/Store/images/instructions/ZG100.pdf
A 9.5 would be significant overkill, delivering between 700 GPH and 800 GPH. (around 6x-7x)
Look at the price of those pumps and the relative power usage, and it's not too hard to pick a right sized pump.
I just checked out aquacave, and the Sicce's mentioned go for either $88 or $110. They use 50 or 70 watts, respectively.
The Mags mentioned are $80, $90 or $120. They use 45, 70 and 93 watts, respectively.
Yes there are other companies out there besides ecotech but an m1 with the kit to make the return 1 1/4 will give him roughly 1200 gph at 5 feet would it not? If he then wanted to slow down the flow thru his sump with the a/c pumps listed he would need to dial it back with a gate valve with the M1 its a simple turn of the knob or if he ordered a mag 7 and didn't like the speed he would have to order a mag 9 can't speed it up.
The work u put into these post are amazing tho I will say that and I have learned a lot from the stuff u bring up.
mcarroll
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Thanks for the kind words! 
If you mean, can you use the method I posted to look at any other vendor's flow curve?
Yep. That was at least half the idea of posting that whole rigamarole. Any curve.
I just used handy and popular examples of AC powered pumps (and only 1 graphic) to show how it works and that cost and power usage can be pretty small.
(If you'd like to see Ecotech's curves here, you can and should post them! I have in past examples.)
For what it's worth, and IMO, 1200 GPH of actual flow is way overkill and isn't going to do much for the owner or the system except make returning water to the tank more expensive.
I'm also not sure that the OP even meant 1200 GPH of actual flow....it seemed like he may have been talking about the 1200 GPH rating on a pump or drain system to me. I may be wrong, but that doesn't change how to use a flow curve.
From a design perspective, I do not think 1200 GPH of actual flow would be perfect for his system, based on what little I know so far.
To me, it was only apparent that the OP was still considering pumps, including the Vectras. I may be wrong.
It also seemed like seeing how to compute head pressure and then use that information to select a pump could be useful to the OP. It's not some kind of black art. If you run a simple return system, finding the correct pump can be just as simple as taking the original 4' number from the OP's OP and plugging that straight into the manufacturer's flow curve. But if you want to be extra sure, or you want to have a point of comparison or you really have a more complicated return system, then using a calculator like I used (see next item) is really the way to go.
Which reminds me I forgot to post the link to the friction loss calculator I pretty much always use and which generated those numbers from earlier:
http://www.freecalc.com/fric.htm
If you mean, can you use the method I posted to look at any other vendor's flow curve?
Yep. That was at least half the idea of posting that whole rigamarole. Any curve.
I just used handy and popular examples of AC powered pumps (and only 1 graphic) to show how it works and that cost and power usage can be pretty small.
(If you'd like to see Ecotech's curves here, you can and should post them!
I have in past examples.)For what it's worth, and IMO, 1200 GPH of actual flow is way overkill and isn't going to do much for the owner or the system except make returning water to the tank more expensive.
I'm also not sure that the OP even meant 1200 GPH of actual flow....it seemed like he may have been talking about the 1200 GPH rating on a pump or drain system to me. I may be wrong, but that doesn't change how to use a flow curve.
From a design perspective, I do not think 1200 GPH of actual flow would be perfect for his system, based on what little I know so far.
To me, it was only apparent that the OP was still considering pumps, including the Vectras. I may be wrong.
It also seemed like seeing how to compute head pressure and then use that information to select a pump could be useful to the OP. It's not some kind of black art. If you run a simple return system, finding the correct pump can be just as simple as taking the original 4' number from the OP's OP and plugging that straight into the manufacturer's flow curve. But if you want to be extra sure, or you want to have a point of comparison or you really have a more complicated return system, then using a calculator like I used (see next item) is really the way to go.
Which reminds me I forgot to post the link to the friction loss calculator I pretty much always use and which generated those numbers from earlier:
http://www.freecalc.com/fric.htm
mcarroll
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For comparison at 1200 GPH plumbing size will count a lot more.
3/4" return pumbing would add nearly 8' of additional head pressure in friction loss, on top of the 4' to the top of the tank.
That makes total head pressure 12'.
I think a Mag 18 and 24 as well as the M1 deliver about the same flow rate of around 900 GPH under these unfavorable circumstances. You'd need a Vectra L1 to attain the 1200 GPH.
The dollars/GPH is abysmal with this setup even for the much less expensive Mag.
Switching to 1" plumbing makes a huge difference, adding just 2.5' of head pressure:
But at 1200 GPH, even bigger plumbing (1.5") is going to be worthwhile to keep pump size restrained – bigger plumbing reduces friction losses to near-zero:
You'll pay a little extra up front in plumbing for 1.5" plumbing and fittings, but you won't need as big of a pump to do the job (a Mag 12 will do it, for example.....$50-$150 cheaper than the Mag you'd need on 3/4" plumbing), saving you money for as long as you run that flow rate.
These heavy friction losses are not really a factor at "regular" flow rates you'd find in a "modern" sump. (I.e. roughly 2x-4x)
3/4" return pumbing would add nearly 8' of additional head pressure in friction loss, on top of the 4' to the top of the tank.
Pressure Loss (psi): 3.38 Head Loss (ft): 7.6
Line Number:
Date: 1/2/2017
Nominal Pipe Size: 0.75
Pipe Schedule: SCH 40
Flow Rate (gpm): 20
Viscosity (cP): 1
Specific Gravity (water=1): 1.025
Temperature (F): 79
Pipe Roughness (ft): 0.00015
Actual Pipe ID (in.): 0.824
Fluid Velocity (ft/sec): 12.04
Reynolds Number: 78681
Flow Region: Turbulent
Friction Factor: 0.026
Overall K: 3.39
Piping Length (ft): 5
Short Radius Elbows: 1
Pipe Exit : 1
Line Number:
Date: 1/2/2017
Nominal Pipe Size: 0.75
Pipe Schedule: SCH 40
Flow Rate (gpm): 20
Viscosity (cP): 1
Specific Gravity (water=1): 1.025
Temperature (F): 79
Pipe Roughness (ft): 0.00015
Actual Pipe ID (in.): 0.824
Fluid Velocity (ft/sec): 12.04
Reynolds Number: 78681
Flow Region: Turbulent
Friction Factor: 0.026
Overall K: 3.39
Piping Length (ft): 5
Short Radius Elbows: 1
Pipe Exit : 1
That makes total head pressure 12'.
I think a Mag 18 and 24 as well as the M1 deliver about the same flow rate of around 900 GPH under these unfavorable circumstances. You'd need a Vectra L1 to attain the 1200 GPH.
The dollars/GPH is abysmal with this setup even for the much less expensive Mag.
Switching to 1" plumbing makes a huge difference, adding just 2.5' of head pressure:
Pressure Loss (psi): 1.11 Head Loss (ft): 2.5
Line Number:
Date: 1/2/2017
Nominal Pipe Size: 1
Pipe Schedule: SCH 40
Flow Rate (gpm): 20
Viscosity (cP): 1
Specific Gravity (water=1): 1.025
Temperature (F): 79
Pipe Roughness (ft): 0.00015
Actual Pipe ID (in.): 1.049
Fluid Velocity (ft/sec): 7.43
Reynolds Number: 61805
Flow Region: Turbulent
Friction Factor: 0.025
Overall K: 2.91
Piping Length (ft): 5
Short Radius Elbows: 1
Pipe Exit : 1
Line Number:
Date: 1/2/2017
Nominal Pipe Size: 1
Pipe Schedule: SCH 40
Flow Rate (gpm): 20
Viscosity (cP): 1
Specific Gravity (water=1): 1.025
Temperature (F): 79
Pipe Roughness (ft): 0.00015
Actual Pipe ID (in.): 1.049
Fluid Velocity (ft/sec): 7.43
Reynolds Number: 61805
Flow Region: Turbulent
Friction Factor: 0.025
Overall K: 2.91
Piping Length (ft): 5
Short Radius Elbows: 1
Pipe Exit : 1
But at 1200 GPH, even bigger plumbing (1.5") is going to be worthwhile to keep pump size restrained – bigger plumbing reduces friction losses to near-zero:
Pressure Loss (psi): 0.15 Head Loss (ft): 0.3
Line Number:
Date: 1/2/2017
Nominal Pipe Size: 1.5
Pipe Schedule: SCH 40
Flow Rate (gpm): 20
Viscosity (cP): 1
Specific Gravity (water=1): 1.025
Temperature (F): 79
Pipe Roughness (ft): 0.000016
Actual Pipe ID (in.): 1.61
Fluid Velocity (ft/sec): 3.15
Reynolds Number: 40269
Flow Region: Turbulent
Friction Factor: 0.022
Overall K: 2.25
Piping Length (ft): 5
Short Radius Elbows: 1
Pipe Exit : 1
Line Number:
Date: 1/2/2017
Nominal Pipe Size: 1.5
Pipe Schedule: SCH 40
Flow Rate (gpm): 20
Viscosity (cP): 1
Specific Gravity (water=1): 1.025
Temperature (F): 79
Pipe Roughness (ft): 0.000016
Actual Pipe ID (in.): 1.61
Fluid Velocity (ft/sec): 3.15
Reynolds Number: 40269
Flow Region: Turbulent
Friction Factor: 0.022
Overall K: 2.25
Piping Length (ft): 5
Short Radius Elbows: 1
Pipe Exit : 1
You'll pay a little extra up front in plumbing for 1.5" plumbing and fittings, but you won't need as big of a pump to do the job (a Mag 12 will do it, for example.....$50-$150 cheaper than the Mag you'd need on 3/4" plumbing), saving you money for as long as you run that flow rate.
These heavy friction losses are not really a factor at "regular" flow rates you'd find in a "modern" sump. (I.e. roughly 2x-4x)
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I am setting up a Red Sea xl425. 88g. dt with 24 g. sump. I just finished installing an M1 vectra and a 1" Apex flow sensor. I'm pumping 4' total vertical through 3/4" sch. 80 with 2 short radius 90 elbows and at max on the M1 I'm getting around 370 gal/hr. flow. The return outlet supplied with the tank is 1/2". Just putting this out there from my current experience. Wondering if that will be enough? Red Sea recommends 1060 gph for this tank. Any thoughts will be greatly appreciated.
