Green Moray and copper?

[speedjester]

I’ve been looking for a green moray for several month local. I finally found one about 2hrs away. The Salesman has told me they’ve had him for 6 month and he’s been in a low dosage of Copper all that time. He assures me it’s been eating squid. How concerned should I be about being in low copper for 6 month?

Attached picture of Moray

 

[Sharkbait19]

@Jay Hemdal
#fishmedic

Eating well is a good sign - I’d ask to see it eat if possible. I’m not too sure on moray copper sensitivity but someone should be along soon who can help.

A low dose shouldn’t be too bad, though it also wouldn’t be super effective on any disease either.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

It depends on the actual dose, as well as the form of the copper (ionic is more toxic than chelated).

One of the first signs eels have with copper toxicity is going off feed (which greens can do for a variety of reasons). So that it is eating implies that the copper is not unduly affecting it.

Jay

 

[lion king]

Personally I never get an eel from a source that runs copper. My research has suggested that even sub-therapeutic levels of copper can have negative effects. There are 2 lfs in town that run copper, I've been here for 30 years, I do not know any eels that survive more than several months to about a 1.5 years from these sources. You can call this anecdotal if you choose, but it's 100%, many of the eels die much sooner. When I have influenced hobbyist to get their eels from other sources, they have had eels live for many years; along with a healthy diet and proper husbandry of course. Many hobbyist that have success with many other species, yet for some reason, every eel they get from these sources, die soon afterwards. That's just one point of reference. Here's the facts, eels have a metabolism which process toxins at a slower rate than other fish, this allows these toxins to linger through their liver longer, and the liver is what is responsible for eliminating these toxins. I wish you and the eel well.

 

[speedjester]

It depends on the actual dose, as well as the form of the copper (ionic is more toxic than chelated).

One of the first signs eels have with copper toxicity is going off feed (which greens can do for a variety of reasons). So that it is eating implies that the copper is not unduly affecting it.

Jay

They use chelated copper. I’m waiting on a video for proof it’s feeding. From the picture does he look healthy? Thin?

 

[speedjester]

Personally I never get an eel from a source that runs copper. My research has suggested that even sub-therapeutic levels of copper can have negative effects. There are 2 lfs in town that run copper, I've been here for 30 years, I do not know any eels that survive more than several months to about a 1.5 years from these sources. You can call this anecdotal if you choose, but it's 100%, many of the eels die much sooner. When I have influenced hobbyist to get their eels from other sources, they have had eels live for many years; along with a healthy diet and proper husbandry of course. Many hobbyist that have success with many other species, yet for some reason, every eel they get from these sources, die soon afterwards. That's just one point of reference. Here's the facts, eels have a metabolism which process toxins at a slower rate than other fish, this allows these toxins to linger through their liver longer, and the liver is what is responsible for eliminating these toxins. I wish you and the eel well.

I understand your feelings regarding copper. But since I can’t guarantee the source of any fish and if they haven’t been kept in copper. It’s a risk I take from any source. I want to see it eat first. But in your experience does he look healthy? Thin?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

They use chelated copper. I’m waiting on a video for proof it’s feeding. From the picture does he look healthy? Thin?

It looks like it has pretty good body condition. I'm trying to get a sense of how large it is - seems like > 2 feet, but that black plastic water return in the background makes it a bit smaller?

I went back and checked my longevity records for green morays. Five eels since 1989. The average longevity was 7.6 years. However, three of them were sent to other aquariums because they grew too large, and they lived longer than that, I just don't have records. The shortest-lived one was 2 years, but it actually died from an infection caused by a huge fish hook that it swallowed before it was caught. All of these were dosed during quarantine with Coppersafe.

This all begs the question - can you house this fish as it grows?


Jay

 

[lion king]

I understand your feelings regarding copper. But since I can’t guarantee the source of any fish and if they haven’t been kept in copper. It’s a risk I take from any source. I want to see it eat first. But in your experience does he look healthy? Thin?

All you can do is limit what you are capable of limiting. Have you seen humans looking healthy and beautiful die from an internal disease, like liver failure. Obviously you can't control every exposure a fish has had until you get them. But you can control the ones you know of. I am very outspoken and have voiced my "opinions" to the lfs in question. Funny how one doesn't bring in dwarf/medium lions any more and say "they always die", and only brings in eels for special order placed in a separate system. While the other now keeps their dwarf/medium lions and scorps in the inverts system with no copper. As well as set up a separate system for their high end eels like the dragon and banana, with no copper. But don't care as much for their pedestrian models like the volitan, snowflake, zebra, etc. I bet because they don't want to p' off the high end customers. My insiders at the lfs tell me of the extremely high mortality rates of these species, I mention lions and scorps because their metabolism and liver function is the same as eels. Let me ask you, do you limit your exposure to negative material as much as you can, although obviously you don't live in a bubble, and can't eliminate 100%. It can be a process with many variables; initial health of the fish and other contributing factors, concentration of toxin, length of exposure time, etc.

I did EDIT the last couple of sentences.

 

[lion king]

If you read through my previous post, you will see that these lfs absolutely know there is a correlation between copper exposure and premature death in eels and Scorpaenidae. If they don't they either don't care or are not that bright. That's why over time they have made adjustments where it benefits them.

 

[speedjester]

If you read through my previous post, you will see that these lfs absolutely know there is a correlation between copper exposure and premature death in eels and Scorpaenidae. If they don't they either don't care or are not that bright. That's why over time they have made adjustments where it benefits them.

I agree 100%. I prefer to observe and only treat when necessary. But my LFS owner has told me pretty much everything comes in copper. He’s gotten puffers and sharks in copper. I picked up some inverts and a goby. Both were in the no copper section. I always check salt ammonia and copper on everything. I got 0.18 copper. I’m guessing they’re moving there inventory so fast they don’t care. I checked the copper in the eels bag 0.68( copper power)

 

[speedjester]

It looks like it has pretty good body condition. I'm trying to get a sense of how large it is - seems like > 2 feet, but that black plastic water return in the background makes it a bit smaller?

I went back and checked my longevity records for green morays. Five eels since 1989. The average longevity was 7.6 years. However, three of them were sent to other aquariums because they grew too large, and they lived longer than that, I just don't have records. The shortest-lived one was 2 years, but it actually died from an infection caused by a huge fish hook that it swallowed before it was caught. All of these were dosed during quarantine with Coppersafe.

This all begs the question - can you house this fish as it grows?


Jay

He’s a lot bigger than I was told 4ft. He ate no issue at the store. I acclimated and dropped him in my 360dt.. if he works out and doesn’t become a complete A hole I’ll keep him in the 360 until he gets bigger then transfer into my pond with the sharks.

 

[lion king]

Do you have other eels, what are you going to be feeding them? Since you have sharks I guess you aren't concerned about them eating you out of house and home.

 

[speedjester]

Do you have other eels, what are you going to be feeding them? Since you have sharks I guess you aren't concerned about them eating you out of house and home.

I have a chest freezer full of smelt, squid, clams and krill.