Green slimer question

[Gregg @ ADP]

Just curious why you state this, to be lower on NO3 vs PO4?

There have been studies that compare growth rates in various conditions re: NO3 and PO4...high NO3/low PO4, low NO3/low PO4, low NO3/high PO4, high NO3/high PO4.

The lowest growth rates were always in the low PO4 conditions.

I can’t remember if the study discussed why. My guess is that if the NO3 and PO4 are utilized by the zooxanthellae, and growth rates are a function of the overall health and photosynthetic rate, then PO4 is going to be the more important limiting factor.

Algae will use NO3 to get ahold of the N, but it’s actually more energetically efficient to get the N from NH3...and I think they can get NH3 from that which is produced by the coral (don’t quote me on that last part)

 

[SeaDweller]

There have been studies that compare growth rates in various conditions re: NO3 and PO4...high NO3/low PO4, low NO3/low PO4, low NO3/high PO4, high NO3/high PO4.

The lowest growth rates were always in the low PO4 conditions.

I can’t remember if the study discussed why. My guess is that if the NO3 and PO4 are utilized by the zooxanthellae, and growth rates are a function of the overall health and photosynthetic rate, then PO4 is going to be the more important limiting factor.

Algae will use NO3 to get ahold of the N, but it’s actually more energetically efficient to get the N from NH3...and I think they can get NH3 from that which is produced by the coral (don’t quote me on that last part)

Thanks for the thought. Always interesting to learn more and more. Coincidentally that’s the situation I’m in: very low NO3 and more PO4 than NO3. I can say my growth is very noticeable.

 

[Dugless]

I’m going to guess that your lights aren’t quite strong enough. Looks like you’re running blue LEDs only on a lower PAR unit.

 

[SuncrestReef]

Do you Reef-Roids?

Also, to piggyback on this..... what is the expected growth rate of a slimer?

Green Slimers are typically fast growers. I kept track of mine for a while:

This was under a Radion XR 30 Pro running the AB+ spectrum for 8 hours daily at 80%. The coral was about 6" below the water surface and receiving 400 PAR.

Water parameters:
Salinity: 1.026
Temp: 78 F
Alk: 8.5 dKH
Cal: 420 ppm
NO3: 4 - 8 ppm
PO4: 0.05 - 0.09 ppm
Mag: 1350 ppm

 

[Softhammer]

More flow! I see knobby zoanthids nearby. No way you have enough flow if zoas are looking like that. Green slimers aren’t picky but all sps need flow. Slow flow=slow growth. Water movement is the corals metabolism.

 

[markalot]

This is simply not true. Everything needs nutrients to grow. It may require lower then usual nutrients, but it still requires nutrients to grow.

What is your experience with a green slimer?

The advice given is to feed heavier and adjust the lights. We don't know if KH is stable, how he doses, if he uses GFO, or much of anything else, just one frag picture of a slimer that he says has been in the tank for a year and hasn't even encrusted over the plug.

No.

I'm sorry, but changing things like this is not the recipe for success.

@Justfbilly Did you see my post? Do you know how stable KH has been, and how do you test PO4, also do you use anything to control nutrients?

This is about 1.5 years of growth.

All it needs is stability. Every other acro in the tank might be pale due to starvation and it still grows. My tank regularly runs at 0 nitrates and a few times has bottomed out at 3 on the Hanna ULR Phosphate checker. Only two things ever harmed this acro. A rapid drop in PO4 when I used too much GFO (I no longer use it) and a KH spike from 8 to 10.5.

Not every acro is the same and making changes without making sure you have all the bases covered is just asking for trouble.

 

[Reef Hammer]

Are you running a protein skimmer? If so and you are registering no Nitrates or Phosphates, turn it off and let your tank get a little “dirty”. I agree with making sure your Kh is rock solid stable first though.

 

[homer1475]

What is your experience with a green slimer?

The advice given is to feed heavier and adjust the lights. We don't know if KH is stable, how he doses, if he uses GFO, or much of anything else, just one frag picture of a slimer that he says has been in the tank for a year and hasn't even encrusted over the plug.

No.

I'm sorry, but changing things like this is not the recipe for success.

@Justfbilly Did you see my post? Do you know how stable KH has been, and how do you test PO4, also do you use anything to control nutrients?

This is about 1.5 years of growth.

All it needs is stability. Every other acro in the tank might be pale due to starvation and it still grows. My tank regularly runs at 0 nitrates and a few times has bottomed out at 3 on the Hanna ULR Phosphate checker. Only two things ever harmed this acro. A rapid drop in PO4 when I used too much GFO (I no longer use it) and a KH spike from 8 to 10.5.

Not every acro is the same and making changes without making sure you have all the bases covered is just asking for trouble.

Listen I'm not here to argue with you, or to say your wrong on this account. BUT to say it DOESN"T NEED NUTRIENTS is just plain wrong. Everything in life in needs nutrients to survive, and the glaring thing that screams out to anybody reading this post is 0 nitrate and 0 phosphate . Yes it needs stable stability, but anyone with corals in a tank should already know this.

 

[markalot]

Listen I'm not here to argue with you, or to say your wrong on this account. BUT to say it DOESN"T NEED NUTRIENTS is just plain wrong. Everything in life in needs nutrients to survive, and the glaring thing that screams out to anybody reading this post is 0 nitrate and 0 phosphate . Yes it needs stable stability, but anyone with corals in a tank should already know this.

How did he test, what test kits? He doesn't have 0 nutrients, it's impossible. Stop with the everything needs nutrients to survive bit, it's insulting and a false argument. He has nutrients in the water, he doesn't need to try and get measurable nutrients in order to fix this slimers issue. I was careless with my words and you pounced all over it. Fun? If you have any experience with Acropora you'll know that ever single one responds slightly differently to the measured nutrients in the tank. Nutrients measured with hobby grade test kits. Some will get more colorful if you can get measurable nitrates with a good test kit, some will brown out.

The only somewhat reliable test for PO4 is the Hanna ULR checker. Did he use this?

I've been down this road. Feed, feed, feed, get a better test kit, oh crap PO4 is high, GFO .... and dead.

My advice is sound, let's get the basics nailed down. We all screw this up at some point or another.

 

[homer1475]

You obviously think your right, and we'll leave it at that.

 

[Justfbilly]

I use a Salifert test kit to test. I test my water 2 times a week and a dose as needed. I was running a doser but I was dosing such small amounts I went back to manual dosing. I am rung. GFO, I run 3/4 of a cup in my Carbon / GFO reactor. My KH I try to keep it at 9 to 9.5. I am also running a protein skimmer and I have been running it out the cup to see if I can get my PO4 to the point that I can al least get some kind of a reading when I test. I think getting the Hanna checkers are my next step or try and talk my wife into the new Trident system for my Apex.

I plan on adjusting the lights but I am not sure what Settings I should use?

 

[TexasTodd]

Is this in your 45g or 125g?
What do you have for flow? Estimate of total GPH of all return and in tank pump/powerhead units. (likely low)
Get the Hanna checker for PO4 the ULR.
Find a PAR meter you can borrow someone in STL has one! (likely low but this coral doesn't need a ton, but can take a lot too)
My slimer looked better after starting Red Sea Colors. Use per the BRS video on alk/Ca usage rate in your tank.

It actually would be helpful to have a sticky thread with SPS listed by species and average annual growth people see. Using estimated mass like (20x) per year. There are so many new tanks with small frags. Remember nice looking growth could be many times original mass but still doesn't look like much if initial frag was small. As an estimate, I'd say I got 50x + out of my Green Slimer in the first year since moving a used system I purchased. This is with tank moving issues that generally affect the 1st year and continually upgrading equipment over the year, with most changes in the first 6 months.

 

[markalot]

I use a Salifert test kit to test. I test my water 2 times a week and a dose as needed. I was running a doser but I was dosing such small amounts I went back to manual dosing. I am rung. GFO, I run 3/4 of a cup in my Carbon / GFO reactor. My KH I try to keep it at 9 to 9.5. I am also running a protein skimmer and I have been running it out the cup to see if I can get my PO4 to the point that I can al least get some kind of a reading when I test. I think getting the Hanna checkers are my next step or try and talk my wife into the new Trident system for my Apex.

I plan on adjusting the lights but I am not sure what Settings I should use?

I would not change the lights yet, acros hate change, concentrate on one fix at a time.

Most likely it's the manual dosing. I have a little 40 gallon that I used to manually dose and while every other SPS did well I could not get acros to grow. They would pale out and just sit in place or slowly die. The tank is overloaded with nutrients. While dosing might be small it's still important to be consistent and steady.

I would remove the GFO, it's not helping and probably making things worse. If this is a small tank without algae eaters then I don't have a good answer. My little 40 gallon is overrun with algae because I refuse to use GFO. Coral colors are great. I let the algae eaters take care of things in my big tank.

If you insist on using GFO then you will have to feed heavily to keep something in the water for the acros to eat. It's not measurable nutrients you're looking for as much as food bits. Measurable nitrates will help some acros gain more color but in my experience not all acros behave like this and some will brown out. PO4 has never bothered anything for me, low or high, as long as it's fairly steady. Dropping PO4 too fast with GFO can do great harm so be careful. My biggest lesson that I learned over the years, documented in my thread, is understanding stability. KH is most important, but lighting changes, nutrient changes, all changes can upset acros. Neglect of my tank has done more to increase acro health than anything else I've done. Nowadays I make very small changes and then wait a month to see what happens.

 

[dwest]

I would not change the lights yet, acros hate change, concentrate on one fix at a time.

Most likely it's the manual dosing. I have a little 40 gallon that I used to manually dose and while every other SPS did well I could not get acros to grow. They would pale out and just sit in place or slowly die. The tank is overloaded with nutrients. While dosing might be small it's still important to be consistent and steady.

I would remove the GFO, it's not helping and probably making things worse. If this is a small tank without algae eaters then I don't have a good answer. My little 40 gallon is overrun with algae because I refuse to use GFO. Coral colors are great. I let the algae eaters take care of things in my big tank.

If you insist on using GFO then you will have to feed heavily to keep something in the water for the acros to eat. It's not measurable nutrients you're looking for as much as food bits. Measurable nitrates will help some acros gain more color but in my experience not all acros behave like this and some will brown out. PO4 has never bothered anything for me, low or high, as long as it's fairly steady. Dropping PO4 too fast with GFO can do great harm so be careful. My biggest lesson that I learned over the years, documented in my thread, is understanding stability. KH is most important, but lighting changes, nutrient changes, all changes can upset acros. Neglect of my tank has done more to increase acro health than anything else I've done. Nowadays I make very small changes and then wait a month to see what happens.

Agree. Stop GFO. Stabilize alkalinity.

 

[cperry7467]

First pic is April 6th, second was a couple days ago. Plenty of growth. Phosphates have been .1 and nitrates at 20. I actually just added it to the tank on April 6th so it didn't take any time to settle in.

 

[Justfbilly]

I would not change the lights yet, acros hate change, concentrate on one fix at a time.

Most likely it's the manual dosing. I have a little 40 gallon that I used to manually dose and while every other SPS did well I could not get acros to grow. They would pale out and just sit in place or slowly die. The tank is overloaded with nutrients. While dosing might be small it's still important to be consistent and steady.

I would remove the GFO, it's not helping and probably making things worse. If this is a small tank without algae eaters then I don't have a good answer. My little 40 gallon is overrun with algae because I refuse to use GFO. Coral colors are great. I let the algae eaters take care of things in my big tank.

If you insist on using GFO then you will have to feed heavily to keep something in the water for the acros to eat. It's not measurable nutrients you're looking for as much as food bits. Measurable nitrates will help some acros gain more color but in my experience not all acros behave like this and some will brown out. PO4 has never bothered anything for me, low or high, as long as it's fairly steady. Dropping PO4 too fast with GFO can do great harm so be careful. My biggest lesson that I learned over the years, documented in my thread, is understanding stability. KH is most important, but lighting changes, nutrient changes, all changes can upset acros. Neglect of my tank has done more to increase acro health than anything else I've done. Nowadays I make very small changes and then wait a month to see what happens.

Thanks for the advice. I am removing the GFO and will the doser hooked back up and running. It’s funny that you mentioned that all the other corals are doing great but the Acros seem to be surviving while my other SPS are doing great.

I will take a picture today and then in 2 weeks and post it to see if I am moving in the right direction. Thanks again for all the help

 

[McPuff]

How many lights do you have on your tank and where is the slimer placed with respect to the lights? So many people say they are easy to keep and I do agree but you have to meet certain criteria for them to thrive in my experience (again, this is my experience):

-Lots of flow! This allows them to grow thicker/stronger. Also makes polyps extend quite a bit more. Growth is consequently much faster.

-Lots of light. I think the "easy to keep" label came about when everyone was using halides. Then it was no problem to adequately light the slimer. LEDs do not do a terrific job of lighting slimer or other stags unless you have them set up properly and really covering your tank well. Slimers show the effects of shading really well as they get super pale on parts that are not getting a lot of light. For reference, I have 9 AI lights over my 300DD and I'm still considering adding a couple of Orphek OR120 light bars to supplement and eliminate any shadows.

Sounds like your flow may be a bit low, given the proximity to zoas... I agree on this point.

Your AI lights (in themselves) should be enough but you may just need to consider placement of the coral itself and whether your light coverage is high enough. Can you share more details here?

 

[Justfbilly]

I am running 2 of the AI hydras about 12” off the top of the tank. I am also running one of the Icecap Gyre 3K pumps. 5e Slimer is about 1/2 way up in the tank but now that you ask the Slimer is on the far right side of the tank and not getting the strongest light.

 

[SeaDweller]

Green Slimers are typically fast growers. I kept track of mine for a while:

This was under a Radion XR 30 Pro running the AB+ spectrum for 8 hours daily at 80%. The coral was about 6" below the water surface and receiving 400 PAR.

Water parameters:
Salinity: 1.026
Temp: 78 F
Alk: 8.5 dKH
Cal: 420 ppm
NO3: 4 - 8 ppm
PO4: 0.05 - 0.09 ppm
Mag: 1350 ppm

Why does this acro not look like a typical green slimer to me?

 

[McPuff]

Why does this acro not look like a typical green slimer to me?

There are a bunch of types of green slimer. I've got 3 different kinds in my tank currently. Hard to say which one is "typical" but maybe you're thinking of Bali slimer?