Guidance with ill Potter's wrasse

KJoFan · Oct 8, 2019

So, I am currently treating all fish for velvet due to this thread https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/kole-tang-velvet.650400/#post-6531153

I am halfway or more through a 14 day treatment with copper, using Copper Safe. Everything has been going smoothly. The Kole is looking great. No one is super happy about their cramped QT quarters but I've been hoping to limp along for the 14 days as I've used up my resources for providing QT space.

Anyway, last night I went down to look in on everyone and saw one of my Potter's wrasses lying on the bottom with what appeared to be a somewhat bloated belly and breathing heavily. I tested ammonia with API test kit and came up with 0.5 ppm. I promptly did a 5g water change making sure to treat the new water with copper to continue the therapeautic levels. I also added API General Cure, as after a quick search here determined it was safe to combine the two meds and it appeared to potentially be an internal issue with the bloating.

And, after @Humblefish PSA about Prime and Copper Safe I added a dribble of that for good measure on the ammonia front. I couldn't do anymore so turned the light off and left it be for the night.

I went down this morning fully expecting to net a dead wrasse out of the tank. It was still alive, though still laying on the bottom of the tank. It is no longer bloated looking and breathing much easier. It did move itself into one of the pvc pieces once I turned the light on and disturbed it, so it's not completely immobile but certainly not swimming either.

However, I don't know where to go from here, if anywhere? The unfortunate part is that he's sharing the tank with several other wrasses and two bangaii cardinals (conditions are not ideal, but I worked with what I had). All other fish thus far appear to be fine, but any treatment he gets, they'll all get.

Is there anything else I can or should be doing at this point? Or just wait, keep an eye on water quality and see if he rebounds? It's a far reach I'm afraid but willing to do what I can to try to save him.

#reefsquad

HotRocks · Oct 8, 2019

Leopard wrasses are fairly delicate and can be sensitive to medications. I generally wouldn’t combine praziquantel with copper unless it was an emergency situation.

How is the oxygenation in your tank? It’s critical to have heavy agitation at the surface when using praziquantel especially combined with copper.

The API kit won’t read ammonia properly with copper present but using an ammonia badge will accurately read ammonia if it is present.

If all the other fish seem fine it could be that the wrasse is copper sensitive although I haven’t found that to be the case with leopards at the proper level. What is your copper level?

KJoFan · Oct 8, 2019

HotRocks said:
Leopard wrasses are fairly delicate and can be sensitive to medications. I generally wouldn’t combine praziquantel with copper unless it was an emergency situation.

How is the oxygenation in your tank? It’s critical to have heavy agitation at the surface when using praziquantel especially combined with copper.

The API kit won’t read ammonia properly with copper present but using an ammonia badge will accurately read ammonia if it is present.

If all the other fish seem fine it could be that the wrasse is copper sensitive although I haven’t found that to be the case with leopards at the proper level. What is your copper level?

Yeah, I didn't want to combine meds necessarily but..here we are.

Surface agitation is good, I was aware of the lowered oxygenation, so made sure to get some agitation going at the surface to help that out.

I was also aware the API kit wouldn't necessarily give me an accurate reading, and I'm not sure there is really ammonia present since it gave me a relatively low reading given the presence of copper.

I haven't had luck with the badges in the past, generally giving me no reading at all. But, I could consider them again at some point. I did seed each QT with LR from my display (I know it's toast now with the copper) just to get the bacteria colony going and tanks have been up for...14 days now, I would think they'd be pretty well caught up on a small 10g tank. As I said, the QT situation isn't ideal since I went in with uncycled tanks, but with velvet rearing it's head in my kole tang, it was a bit of a triage situation as I've had velvet move fast through my fish population in the past, and wanted to avoid it if possible.

I have a second Potter's in the same QT that seems ok thus far. These Potter's are tricky though in my experience. Copper is at 2.0 since Oct 1st using the Hanna checker for testing.

HotRocks · Oct 8, 2019

KJoFan said:
Yeah, I didn't want to combine meds necessarily but..here we are. Surface agitation is good, I was aware of the lowered oxygenation, so made sure to get some agitation going at the surface to help that out.

I was also aware the API kit wouldn't necessarily give me an accurate reading, and I'm not sure there is really ammonia present since it gave me a relatively low reading given the presence of copper.

I haven't had luck with the badges in the past, generally giving me no reading at all. But, I could consider them again at some point. I did seed each QT with LR from my display (I know it's toast now with the copper) just to get the bacteria colony going and tanks have been up for...14 days now, I would think they'd be pretty well caught up on a small 10g tank. As I said, the QT situation isn't ideal since I went in with uncycled tanks, but with velvet rearing it's head in my kole tang, it was a bit of a triage situation as I've had velvet move fast through my fish population in the past, and wanted to avoid it if possible.

I have a second Potter's in the same QT that seems ok thus far. These Potter's are tricky though in my experience. Copper is at 2.0 since Oct 1st using the Hanna checker for testing.

They are very tricky, I keep 2 in my DT. They are terrible shippers too. Anyway it sounds like you are doing everything I would be doing so at this point since you are dealing with velvet I think you just proceed as you are and hope for the best IMO.

Hopefully the fish will snap out of it the only other thing you may consider for the potters since velvet was present in the tank the fish came from is a rally bath to help with any gill damage that may be present. Copper has been therapeutic long enough that the fish should no longer have an affliction but could have gill damage from when velvet was present.

KJoFan · Oct 8, 2019

HotRocks said:
They are very tricky, I keep 2 in my DT. They are terrible shippers too. Anyway it sounds like you are doing everything I would be doing so at this point since you are dealing with velvet I think you just proceed as you are and hope for the best IMO.

Hopefully the fish will snap out of it the only other thing you may consider for the potters since velvet was present in the tank the fish came from is a rally bath to help with any gill damage that may be present. Copper has been therapeutic long enough that the fish should no longer have an affliction but could have gill damage from when velvet was present.

That tank will meet it's full 14 days on the weekend, 13th or 14th if I remember correctly. It was the last to get up to full therapeutic copper just due to the sensitive nature of these wrasses. I am just hoping this doesn't end up a domino effect. I finally got two Potter's doing well and established in the display after many losses of them due to the reasons you stated, I'd hate to go back to square one with them.

I do fear gill damage as well with the labored breathing I was seeing last night. This morning, much calmer, either that's good, or he was on his way out, I'm not entirely sure.

KJoFan · Oct 8, 2019

What is wrong with me? It is Copper Power, not Coppersafe. Is it Monday?? ;Facepalm

KJoFan · Oct 8, 2019

So came home after work to check on things and the Potter’s was up swimming around like nothing happened.
I offered a bit of frozen bloodworms as those are a favorite and it gobbled them up like no big deal.
So, do I see the GC treatment through with another dose tomorrow as directed on the box?
I have to say I was shocked to see him up and around.

KJoFan · Oct 9, 2019

@HotRocks any reason to keep treating with GC if the Potter's is back up and eating as normal? Or consider him cured of his mystery illness and move along?

On another note, my hippo in another QT has been stressed throughout and seems to have some sloughing skin. At first I chalked it up to the fact it wedges itself under the piece of LR in there and is buggering itself up, but now I'm not so sure. I don't have a good photo as yet to share, but any ideas? Just stress and lack of ideal conditions? He shares his QT with a pair of clowns that appear fine, if off their feed a bit.