Guilt in the reefing hobby

[BackToTheReef]

Not sure I feel guilty but I do feel bad. It is my responsibility to take care of whatever I attempt to keep and having them not survive is a failure on my part.

Some of this might come from killing a lot of fish in my early days of fish keeping years ago. While the hobby might not have the biggest impact on fish stocks (inverts/corals included) it certainly does have some impact so the more I can reduce that impact the better. Choosing captive bred livestock, providing the best care possible to the wild caught fish/inverts I keep, and providing them long term survivability is what I consider my responsibility and kind of where I draw my ethical bar.

A bar I can say I did not reach years ago. Is it guilt? I don't know, is it trying to be a responsible reek/fish keeper yes. (All our bars are at different levels and that is ok)

 

[MichaelReefer]

Not really, I only keep captive bread fish and try to give them the best life they can have. Oh and no sharks will eat them

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

I don't, but then again I only buy captive bred. There is undoubtedly death and suffering in the captive bred supply chain as well, but I have a hard time believing that it's equal to or more than with wild caught fish. At the very least, fish that are born in the ocean stay in the ocean when you buy captive bred.

Regardless of whether or not you feel guilty about our hobby, we really need to be careful about how this hobby is perceived. The public doesn't have the best understanding or respect for what we do, and there are regular attempts to shut this hobby down. The Hawaii ornamental collection ban is a great case study for why we need to be more careful about how others, not just ourselves, feel about what we do.

This presentation by Dr. Chad Callan sums it up well, but the narrative goes something like this. In 1998, the state of Hawaii performed a study to determine the impact of marine ornamental collection on fish populations. They estimated some populations of popular aquarium fish (yellow tang, Achilles tang, etc) had declined by between 50% and 60%.

Two year after that study was completed, Hawaii set up a few different types fishing areas. The first was a marine protected area (MPA). Marine ornamental collection was banned in these areas. The second was a fish recovery area (FRA). These are areas where fish stocks had been reduced by ornamental collection. Collection was banned in these areas so that fish stocks could recover. Finally, there were "open" areas where collection could continue. Over the next 14 years, yellow tang stocks were monitored in these three areas. The data are below:

In this graph, the MPA is the baseline. Note that the red line, the FRA, recovered to baseline in just about 4 years. The open area where fishing continued stayed lower. The important takeaway is that though the open area trends up and down, it trends the exact same way that the protected area does. More importantly, after almost 15 years of yellow tang collection, the open areas had about the exact same population of yellow tang that they did when the surveys started (about 12/100m2 vs 11/100m2). In other words, collection had almost no effect on the wild populations of tangs around Hawaii.

Despite the fact that the data show fish stocks remaining stable, Hawaii banned collection in 2017. This is pretty remarkable, and I don't think many of us really understand the implications. The collection ban in HI happened not because what we're doing is harming the environment, it happened because of politics and emotions. If bans are happening without data because of emotion and NIMBY-ism, Hawaii and Fiji may only be the beginning.

Unfortunately, perception is reality. It doesn't really matter that we don't feel guilty about keeping fish because we "treat them like pets." As long as the public perceives our hobby as "bad," we're going to have targets on our backs. I'm not saying that we should feel guilty for what we do, and I don't know what the solution is. But the discussion needs to be broader than just what we think about the ethics of our hobby. We also need to consider how outsiders perceive our hobby.

 

[jcolliii]

I do feel some guilt - but if you think about it there is a lot to feel guilt about.

I'd bet that for every one fish that makes it into a stable home display, several have died at each step from collection to local holding -> from local holding to export holding -> from export to import -> from import to distributor -> from online retailer -> hobbyist and/or in the pet store tanks. No idea what the rate of death is in this supply chain, but I'd bet it's much greater than 50%. Then there are the fish that get too much cyanide and slowly die. Species that are difficult to keep in captivity where 75% likely die within a few months.

I don't think the eating fish analogy is applicable here - one is for sustenance and the other is purely aesthetic. I see a lot of people (rightly) eschew the collection of coral to bleach and dry for tourist ornaments... but thinking about all of the dead fish along the supply chain doesn't make you feel any guilt at all? In this comparison, someone is being killed for an ornament either way.

 

[Evanbardiel]

I try very much to only buy captive bred, with that being said this honby has also saved species who were otherwise going extinct.

 

[stanleo]

The only guilt I feel is perpetuating a hobby that can be easy to abuse. Many get into it not doing the proper research and the animals they get suffer as a result. But regardless whether or not you get out of the hobby, the hobby is not going to stop. So to assuage our guilt, we should always be ready, willing and able to share knowledge and experience and maybe even a frag or two to people just starting out. And continue our own education and remember that no matter how long you have been doing it, you don't know everything. Guilt can be a useful emotion. In this instance it can help to keep respect for the animals in our care and the environment they come from as a whole.

 

[dbowman5]

In this comparison, someone is being killed for an ornament either way.

an interesting phrase i suppose that in life the Bhudist model of treasuring all life is a worthy goal for the believer. I personally do not use pesticides in my yard for the protection of pollinators and other food source animals. I also do not feel guilt for feeding songbirds even though their numbers attract an occasional hawk to the feeders too. in my opinion some invasive species are to be pulled wherever they are found while others are tolerated. Coyotes are returning to our neighborhoods after being exterminated many years ago in this state. do we feel guilt for the arctic copepods that we feed to our fish and corals? do we feel guilt over the amphijpods who die when the filter socks are cleaned? how about the aptasia and flatworms?
is Ornament a good description for our living animals. big mouth billy bass is an ornament. an annoying one that gets turned off quite soon after being mounted on the wall. i appreciate art and have some pieces on my walls and on my shelves. i do not consider my sea life ornamental, the aquaria is life that i am involved in.
I am appreciative of the different views i am able to access here on R2R. the different sensibilities i can learn from. the opportunity i have to share my POV and have it altered by frank discussions of issues relating to, well in the different forums, everything.
we are alive, what a blessing, we have the opportunity to grow, to learn, to apply and observe; to relate to other living beings and to the inanimate too. we have choices and obligations, and for me the tendency to ramble on, thank you R2R for the opportunity to share.

 

[Doostur]

I always think about how much happier they would be in the open ocean. Free. This is why I do my best and spare no expense. Best food, nori etc.

 

[Pistondog]

Hey all,

I was just wondering if anyone feels guilty about keeping these tropical fish in our tanks. I was just reading about how they're stunned and captured, and many of them die during the process.

I just have been feeling a little guilty about taking them from their native homes, and putting them in these restrictive tanks, what do you guys think- just wondering about other people's opinions.

Good question.
We try to be responsible, buying sustainable.
It generates an interest in the ocean, the captive fish and livestock are ambassadors.
I can't lake fish for bass anymore.

 

[ReefzJR]

Over a decade ago, I don’t remember captive bred and aquaculture corals being as easily accessible as they are now. I live in FLA and my county is HUGE on farming freshwater tropicals. Breeding salt water fish, I’ve heard can be more complex.

It is my opinion that the hobby (demand) for more coral and fish has created these outlets for alternative sourcing, more responsible sourcing.

With ocean acidification and reefs dieing at the rate they are. Maybe in a few more decades (for some species) they may only exist on the hobby.

In the Tiger king documentary, they claimed that captive tigers outnumber those in the wild

 

[jcolliii]

an interesting phrase i suppose that in life the Bhudist model of treasuring all life is a worthy goal for the believer. I personally do not use pesticides in my yard for the protection of pollinators and other food source animals. I also do not feel guilt for feeding songbirds even though their numbers attract an occasional hawk to the feeders too. in my opinion some invasive species are to be pulled wherever they are found while others are tolerated. Coyotes are returning to our neighborhoods after being exterminated many years ago in this state. do we feel guilt for the arctic copepods that we feed to our fish and corals? do we feel guilt over the amphijpods who die when the filter socks are cleaned? how about the aptasia and flatworms?
is Ornament a good description for our living animals. big mouth billy bass is an ornament. an annoying one that gets turned off quite soon after being mounted on the wall. i appreciate art and have some pieces on my walls and on my shelves. i do not consider my sea life ornamental, the aquaria is life that i am involved in.
I am appreciative of the different views i am able to access here on R2R. the different sensibilities i can learn from. the opportunity i have to share my POV and have it altered by frank discussions of issues relating to, well in the different forums, everything.
we are alive, what a blessing, we have the opportunity to grow, to learn, to apply and observe; to relate to other living beings and to the inanimate too. we have choices and obligations, and for me the tendency to ramble on, thank you R2R for the opportunity to share.

I think the word ornament is apt. Are reef aquaria in the home a necessity? If not, they are ornamental (hence the phrase ornamental fish). I suppose you could make an argument that they are educational, or inspirational. But they are unarguably unnecessary. Killing other things for ornament is one of the things that humans do. We can justify it in different ways, but the bottom line is that it is impossible to not kill some fish or corals in the supply chain. Just something that does make me, at least, feel some guilt.

 

[JCTReefer]

Does anyone feel bad when they eat a hamburger? Or a chicken sandwhich? Bacon? Some of the fish we keep in this hobby get eaten by people. At least they have a fighting chance in my tank. Okay, making a joke there. There’s a million different ways to look at it. I feel some fish should be left in the ocean and not collected for this hobby. Like visiting a zoo. Makes you feel bad to see an animal caged up for your viewing pleasure. I think if you’re providing the animals in your care with the right conditions and meet their requirements, it’s no different than keeping a dog. I also feel they should be treated as our wet pets and not viewed as, “just a fish”. When you go snorkeling or scuba diving, and then come back home to your tank. It does make you feel kinda bad. Here’s an Emperor Angel with a spear through it. I’m thinking it would be better off in my tank.

 

[jcolliii]

Yep - absolutely. Vegetarian here exactly because of those reasons.

 

[Character85]

Like Al Pacino says in Devil's Advocate. "Guilt is like a ton of bricks. The weight can crush you. All you gotta do is set it down and move forward. True freedom means never having to say your sorry."

You need to look at the hobby on the flip side. In 50 years 70% of our natural reefs in the oceans will be gone. We are keeping a piece of them alive and the fish lucky enough to be raised in our tanks are ones free from their own guilt. Free from making painful chouces. Free from climate change. Free from predation. It is heaven for them.

 

[DrewBR]

Well. Everything I have in my tank is captive bred, from the fish to the coral, with the notable exception of a single scoly that I know was collected. But here is how I see it. We as hobbyists have a responsability to give the best care possible to every animal we own and I can't feel guilty for doing that. I've had in the past fish that grew too big or that weren't thriving in my tank, for THAT I do feel guilty.

Another thing that comes to mind is that this hobby may be the only thing left of the coral reef ecosystem if we can't turn things around. Right now capturing fish is the only choice for some species but we are learning quickly to breed them and we are even able to spawn coral, and every hobbyist has a part in that.

Heavy lies the crown.

 

[breefrost]

I think, like with all animals, some species are more chill with being captive than others. Ones that never leave their little territory anyway, and you give them enough space, Im sure live a very happy spoiled life. Ones that migrate or constantly explore for food, I would not buy because I would feel badly I can never provide an accurate habitat.

 

[robbyg]

Hey all,

I was just wondering if anyone feels guilty about keeping these tropical fish in our tanks. I was just reading about how they're stunned and captured, and many of them die during the process.

I just have been feeling a little guilty about taking them from their native homes, and putting them in these restrictive tanks, what do you guys think- just wondering about other people's opinions.

I have been Scuba Diving for 40 years now and I understand completely how you feel.
I really don't care about studies that are done, it's like every other study. One year a study says drinking milk is great for you and in a couple of years another says its bad for your health.

In the early 1980's the typical reefs I dived on had about five times as much life in them as they do today. I have watched as 1/2 mile lengths of reef have gone from Gardens to just bare rock and Algae.
When the corals die or are removed the fish seem to be OK at first but then they also start to disappear. The fishermen are relentless but they are typically like dumb bombs just going after whatever they can hit. The fish collectors on the other hand will wipe out an entire area of a several specific species and you can go back two years later and those breeds of fish are just gone.

There are numerous factors at work killing the reefs, the main one being global warming and run off from farms but the Aquarium industry has played a part in us getting here and it's kind of sad. As one poster said we need to become self reliant and breed everything we sell. We also need to stop people from buying fish and corals that they don't understand how to keep. This has probably been the one area of the hobby that has done the most damage.

 

[KrisReef]

Not a lot after seeing this. When they don't got fished out for food, they might still got eaten by other fish. "There is always bigger fish." remember?

When I feel guilty, it's when I was incompetent, like loosing fish to disease, or during quarantine when I didn't know how to treat or don't have meds on hand.

I've been yearning all week for some fresh Ahi on the beach in Tahiti and now you go and post this!
And not so fast, but how many tang lovers think these fish are in too small of a container for that many fish?

The worst meal I ever had was at "Island Night" in Rarotonga. I plunged a serving spoon into a plate of some kind of salad, dumped a huge portion on my plate (snorkeling makes me hungry) and when I got back to my seat I looked closer and saw I was staring at a plateful of baby giant clam mantles. I lost my appetite thinking of how much those clams would have cost me back home. Trust me, they look much happier and healthier in a tank than on the plate. So Yeah, I do regret eating what belongs in an aquarium.

 

[Merv49]

Hey all,

I was just wondering if anyone feels guilty about keeping these tropical fish in our tanks. I was just reading about how they're stunned and captured, and many of them die during the process.

I just have been feeling a little guilty about taking them from their native homes, and putting them in these restrictive tanks, what do you guys think- just wondering about other people's opinions.

Yes. I feel about as guilty as I do when I got to Red Lobster or Captain D’s. Ummmm Tasty. Are you serious???

 

[Mastiffsrule]

Not sure I feel guilty but I do feel bad. It is my responsibility to take care of whatever I attempt to keep and having them not survive is a failure on my part.

Some of this might come from killing a lot of fish in my early days of fish keeping years ago. While the hobby might not have the biggest impact on fish stocks (inverts/corals included) it certainly does have some impact so the more I can reduce that impact the better. Choosing captive bred livestock, providing the best care possible to the wild caught fish/inverts I keep, and providing them long term survivability is what I consider my responsibility and kind of where I draw my ethical bar.

A bar I can say I did not reach years ago. Is it guilt? I don't know, is it trying to be a responsible reek/fish keeper yes. (All our bars are at different levels and that is ok)

Well said, very well said.

I will throw a wrench in the conversation. Why is captive bred making a difference? It is just a fish that never knew freedom. When the fish hits our tanks captive, hand caught, net caught, cloned, it is all on the same playing field In the tank.

Been waiting forever to use this one