Hammer is really unhappy

[Nate Chalk]

Yeah, I know, but I am thankful for the help, even if they are only reading part of the thread...

So far, useful bits of info include iodine, and increasing flow. I have been babying it with flow thus far.

And par.

 

[RockBox13]

There are no SPS there and pH is perfectly fine. You act as if some mortal coral sin is being committed and we are all too ignorant to see it. Moreover, he raised alk to see if it would help.

I keep SPS and my pH hovers around 8 in the winter. Current ALK is 8.2 and my SPS and LPS are thriving. So try again?

No mortal sin, but I like your passion and commitment to anecdotal evidence. Of course! Your corals are thriving and this guy has the exact same set up as you, so there’s no reason that’s not gonna work in everyone’s tanks. Who’s the one asking for help here? And if this tank is thriving, I would love to see your idea of thriving as well. Do a little review of people’s posts with dying Euphyllia here in the past month or so and you tell me if there isn’t a common factor of low alkalinity and low pH. It’s so common between them that several will list every parameter they have except pH and they generally start off listing their Nitrate and Phosphate levels and blaming that.

 

[BeanAnimal]

No mortal sin, but I like your passion and commitment to anecdotal evidence.

Your initial post pointed to 8pH and 8dkh as being some kind of terrible thing. I am running those numbers. If my post was anecdotal, what was yours?

common factor of low alkalinity and low pH.

8dkh is not low, nor is 8pH.

 

[jabberwock]

No mortal sin, but I like your passion and commitment to anecdotal evidence. Of course! Your corals are thriving and this guy has the exact same set up as you, so there’s no reason that’s not gonna work in everyone’s tanks. Who’s the one asking for help here? And if this tank is thriving, I would love to see your idea of thriving as well. Do a little review of people’s posts with dying Euphyllia here in the past month or so and you tell me if there isn’t a common factor of low alkalinity and low pH. It’s so common between them that several will list every parameter they have except pH and they generally start off listing their Nitrate and Phosphate levels and blaming that.

Sorry, I have BeanAnimal on my ignore list. So not sure what they said, but you do not make any sense. I really do not understand where you are coming from.

 

[jabberwock]

And par.

I don't think that is an issue. But I do appreciate your input. The coral thrives for 9 months and then goes south. Same lighting...

 

[Lavey29]

I don't think that is an issue. But I do appreciate your input. The coral thrives for 9 months and then goes south. Same lighting...

I've had hammers do this also one head at a time. Fine for several years then decline. I can only assume bacteria infection of some sort. However, 0 phosphate is not good for your corals either. They will decline, it may take multiple months before they show this because they decline from the inside out. You can't rely on internet par. I did and was shocked when I finally rented a par meter. My par was so low.

 

[jabberwock]

Thanks guys.

 

[RockBox13]

Not here to argue with you. But maybe you can offer suggestions instead of insults. Post #12 and 14 are mine can you offer any insight into what the problem might be.

Absolutely, thank you for asking. It also applies to Dinoflagellates and ties into some things from Mac’s Reef protocol regarding Dinoflagellates as well. I’m out walking the dog and hitting the store, so forgive me for not being so prompt in typing it all out, but I will respond fully.

 

[Quintin]

Man, I need some popcorn for this.
lol.

 

[RockBox13]

Let me get this out of the way here now. Doot-Doola-Doot-Doo…
Hopefully that’s in order.

 

[jimk60]

Not here to argue with you. But maybe you can offer suggestions instead of insults. Post #12 and 14 are mine can you offer any insight into what the problem might be.

Thanks, I reviewed your posts twice and still don't get your point. Can you be more specific and address posts #12 and 14 of this thread for those of us who don't see your point

 

[jimk60]

Sorry to OP if this hijacks your thread!

 

[RockBox13]

When I started out keeping corals around 2004 German aquarists were the leaders in terms of their technical approach to SPS keeping and the number of tanks with amazing growth and coloration although some of the corals would really brown out lower on the branches much like a lot of the early ORA Acropora like the Miami Orchid which was tough to color up. They had Tropic Marin and Korallenzucht providing high quality products and their own approach to the best reef supplements like amino acids, beneficial bacteria, iodine, trace elements. That Pooh’s Extra is good stuff. Anyhow, it was essentially the “Old School” approach of low nutrient, regular feeding phyto & zooplankton and the supplements like the aminos and vitamins. They added a lot of tech like reactors and probes and controllers to it as well. There was an emphasis on maintaining pH levels. Now, you can’t shake a stick at those German Reefs pre 2000 and I don’t imagine anyone would claim they were not getting accurate test readings on their own tanks or that they weren’t running very low nutrient systems on the best looking corals. A lot of people committed to the Zeovit system, but it was pretty expensive and fairly complicated, but the goals were the same. Low nutrient systems with extremely clear water, quality foods and complete major, minor and trace elements, vitamins and amino acids. There was never a mention of Nitrate and Phosphate levels or ratio until the balancing act of carbon dosing came along in the form of vodka and it works without a doubt by manipulating the bacterial population.

 

[RockBox13]

Thanks, I reviewed your posts twice and still don't get your point. Can you be more specific and address posts #12 and 14 of this thread for those of us who don't see your point

Yes, about the larger branching Hammer dying and when there is tissue loss without visible brown jelly right?

 

[RockBox13]

@jimk60 The conditions that support Cyanobacteria/Dinoflagellate blooms and why they persist and or create conditions for the various toxic infections of corals that lead to complete tissue necrosis involves combinations of Cyanobacteria and microorganisms like ciliates that seem to be behind rapid tissue loss like brown jelly.
“A ciliate associated with the coral disease brown band (BrB) was identified as a new species belonging to the class Oligohymenophorea, subclass Scuticociliatia.” - National Institutes of Health
Others like Ostreopsis have been associated with tissue necrosis by contact and other take advantage of openings or damage to infect the skeleton itself. If you’ve ever experienced Red Skeleton Disease, it’s the Kiss of Death by the time you see usually and you have to cut away anything close to the infected area. Brown Jelly doesn’t have to be present for there to be a similar type of complete necrosis. Some toxic algaes are very subtle and don’t show much indication like that nasty Ostreopsis. What they all share in common is that tend to become more dominant in certain conditions where there are nutrients available to them like detritus in the sandbed and low pH.
Today I was introduced to another Dinos treatment guide by Mac’s Reef apparently in the UK and I had low expectations, but I was very pleasantly surprised!

 

[jimk60]

Yes, about the larger branching Hammer dying and when there is tissue loss without visible brown jelly right?

When I started out keeping corals around 2004 German aquarists were the leaders in terms of their technical approach to SPS keeping and the number of tanks with amazing growth and coloration although some of the corals would really brown out lower on the branches much like a lot of the early ORA Acropora like the Miami Orchid which was tough to color up. They had Tropic Marin and Korallenzucht providing high quality products and their own approach to the best reef supplements like amino acids, beneficial bacteria, iodine, trace elements. That Pooh’s Extra is good stuff. Anyhow, it was essentially the “Old School” approach of low nutrient, regular feeding phyto & zooplankton and the supplements like the aminos and vitamins. They added a lot of tech like reactors and probes and controllers to it as well. There was an emphasis on maintaining pH levels. Now, you can’t shake a stick at those German Reefs pre 2000 and I don’t imagine anyone would claim they were not getting accurate test readings on their own tanks or that they weren’t running very low nutrient systems on the best looking corals. A lot of people committed to the Zeovit system, but it was pretty expensive and fairly complicated, but the goals were the same. Low nutrient systems with extremely clear water, quality foods and complete major, minor and trace elements, vitamins and amino acids. There was never a mention of Nitrate and Phosphate levels or ratio until the balancing act of carbon dosing came along in the form of vodka and it works without a doubt by manipulating the bacterial po

When I started out keeping corals around 2004 German aquarists were the leaders in terms of their technical approach to SPS keeping and the number of tanks with amazing growth and coloration although some of the corals would really brown out lower on the branches much like a lot of the early ORA Acropora like the Miami Orchid which was tough to color up. They had Tropic Marin and Korallenzucht providing high quality products and their own approach to the best reef supplements like amino acids, beneficial bacteria, iodine, trace elements. That Pooh’s Extra is good stuff. Anyhow, it was essentially the “Old School” approach of low nutrient, regular feeding phyto & zooplankton and the supplements like the aminos and vitamins. They added a lot of tech like reactors and probes and controllers to it as well. There was an emphasis on maintaining pH levels. Now, you can’t shake a stick at those German Reefs pre 2000 and I don’t imagine anyone would claim they were not getting accurate test readings on their own tanks or that they weren’t running very low nutrient systems on the best looking corals. A lot of people committed to the Zeovit system, but it was pretty expensive and fairly complicated, but the goals were the same. Low nutrient systems with extremely clear water, quality foods and complete major, minor and trace elements, vitamins and amino acids. There was never a mention of Nitrate and Phosphate levels or ratio until the balancing act of carbon dosing came along in the form of vodka and it works without a doubt by manipulating the bacterial population.

When I started keeping corals in the 1990s the Berlin method was all the rage. Zero phosphate and nitrates was the goal though pretty much unachievable with the technology. Dosing phosphate and nitrates was one of the hardest things for me to do.

 

[jimk60]

Yes, about the larger branching Hammer dying and when there is tissue loss without visible brown jelly right?

Yes

 

[BOYERZ]

I don't think the OP is going to get the answer they want.

I offer no help here, other than you have a ecosystem In a box.

 

[jimk60]

So do you know when dKH of 8 and a pH of 8 aren’t the proper levels? When your corals tell you it’s not by looking terrible and dying. And if you need to go back and review why some tanks work well at a certain pH and not others, crack open a book or scientific study because you could actually be helpful that way.

So l have three colonies of hammer corals all at the same ph and alk. One dies but the other two continues to prosper. The last three heads are fragged off the dying coral about a month ago and seems fine. Not sure how this is parameters since multiple other corals are doing fine.

 

[RockBox13]

Moving right along, now with respect to the dying of one Hammer versus the others and there are multiple heads dying slowly versus others that are perfectly fine. I have seen this situation before definitely. If it were water parameters it would cause all the heads to have a similar response and I’m sure everyone has seen that before. Because it went slowly over months indicates to me that there was some sort of infection. Unless you saw or suspect that something like a nuisance crab was coming out of the same hiding place and gradually picking heads to death which does happen because those crabs are usually dark in color and will only come out when it’s dark, people can miss them for a long time. Similar situations happen with fish and an unseen Bobbit worm. They just disappear one after the other with no trace left behind. That you cut it off and it’s been okay since also leads me to believe a possible viral infection that have little indications. I didn’t get your normal parameters, but like most animal and human deaths due to a virus, there aren’t a lot of clear visible indications. I have a couple ideas about protozoan infection or possible virus. Did you know that measured by mass, bacteria and viruses make up the majority of life on a natural reef?