Has Anyone Seen Negative Results From Using Miracle Mud in a Refugium?

[Dr. Jim]

I'm debating whether I should add Miracle Mud to my HOB Refugium and am wondering what effects, if any, on SPS others have experienced by using it.

Part of my reason for doing so is because I can't get chaeto to live for long. Recently I picked up some ulva and a species of gracilaria off the beach (NJ) and it has been doing a little better, but not great.

I can't help but wonder if my tin problem since Day 1 is affecting the algae (and my corals).

FWIW....
45 gal SPS frag Q-tank was set up 11 mo ago; originally bare-bottom.
PO4 have always been 0.03-0.10 (usually closer to .06-.07)
NO3 were 5-10 for the first 8 mo.
-I added 3" Carib-Sea sand 3 mo ago (half Special Grade Arag-Alive and half Ooite Ocean Direct). Shortly after this, nitrates started to creep up....first to 20, then 20-25, and today, 30. (Not sure if this is from the sand, though, but seems suspicious). In the past month I've added Xport-NO3 and Matrix (in steps) and Microbacter 7.
I have been carbon-dosing for about 6 months (5 months with BioFuel; then switched to KZ Start and Food about a month ago.
-Daily AWC of 0.5% and weekly 10% change. (TM Pro)

 

[Brandon McHenry]

I'm debating whether I should add Miracle Mud to my HOB Refugium and am wondering what effects, if any, on SPS others have experienced by using it.

Part of my reason for doing so is because I can't get chaeto to live for long. Recently I picked up some ulva and a species of gracilaria off the beach (NJ) and it has been doing a little better, but not great.

I can't help but wonder if my tin problem since Day 1 is affecting the algae (and my corals).

FWIW....
45 gal SPS frag Q-tank was set up 11 mo ago; originally bare-bottom.
PO4 have always been 0.03-0.10 (usually closer to .06-.07)
NO3 were 5-10 for the first 8 mo.
-I added 3" Carib-Sea sand 3 mo ago (half Special Grade Arag-Alive and half Ooite Ocean Direct). Shortly after this, nitrates started to creep up....first to 20, then 20-25, and today, 30. (Not sure if this is from the sand, though, but seems suspicious). In the past month I've added Xport-NO3 and Matrix (in steps) and Microbacter 7.
I have been carbon-dosing for about 6 months (5 months with BioFuel; then switched to KZ Start and Food about a month ago.
-Daily AWC of 0.5% and weekly 10% change. (TM Pro)

I think it depends on your goal for the refugium. I have run miracle mud in several of my past SPS tanks and I’ve loved it. That being said you can’t run a nice tumbling ball of chaeto, you have to use other algae that don’t need to tumble. I’ve used caulerpa in the past with good success. The mud is a great place for anaerobic microbes to chew up nitrate and they are definitely a different group of microbes than the ones that live in sand, so it’s great for diversity. The only thing you have to be careful about is disturbing it once it’s established because it can be the same as disturbing a deep sand bed by releasing nasties. I think if you don’t mind using other algae then miracle mud is a great option!

 

[Dr. Jim]

I don't want this thread to stray too far from my Miracle Mud question.....but I'd like to side track briefly and ask a "Chaeto question":

It's been baffling me why I can't get algae to grow despite adequate nutrients. (I do add trace elements and ICP tests indicate I'm doing pretty well with them). Again, I'm wondering about the tin but also lighting. So I wonder if anyone has any thoughts about the lighting of my HOB refugium. (I have to wonder about the basic design of this thing.....probably not the best). I was also concerned about flow and got rid of the pump that pumps water (and solids) into the refugium directly from the MT and replaced it with a stronger pump that pumps "clean" water from the last sump compartment. Here is the refugium with a white LED light that comes with it:
Large AquaFuge2 Hang on Back Refugium with LED Lighting - CPR Aquatics - Bulk Reef Supply
I also added this light: Auqa Gadget ChaetoMax 2-n-1 Refugium LED (18 Watt) - Innovative Marine - Bulk Reef Supply (The original light by itself didn't seem to penetrate thru a thick ball of chaeto).
I glued 2" legs on it and glued it on the back (middle) of the refugium.
I've played with many combinations of lighting and duration: Both on for 8, 10 or 12 hours; One on for 6 hours followed by the other for 6 hours; Presently, both on for 11 hours. Nothing seems to be working. Any thoughts? Thanks!

 

[RobMcC]

I don't want this thread to stray too far fromBering about the tin but also lighting. So I wonder if anyone has any thoughts about the lighting of my HOB refugium. (I have to wonder about the basic design of this thing.....probably not the best). I was also concerned about flow and got rid of the pump that pumps water (and solids) into the refugium directly from the MT and replaced it with a stronger pump that pumps "clean" water from the last sump compartment. Here is the refugium with a white LED light that comes with it:
Large AquaFuge2 Hang on Back Refugium with LED Lighting - CPR Aquatics - Bulk Reef Supply
I also added this light: Auqa Gadget ChaetoMax 2-n-1 Refugium LED (18 Watt) - Innovative Marine - Bulk Reef Supply (The original light by itself didn't seem to penetrate thru a thick ball of chaeto).
I glued 2" legs on it and glued it on the back (middle) of the refugium.
I've played with many combinations of lighting and duration: Both on for 8, 10 or 12 hours; One on for 6 hours followed by the other for 6 hours; Presently, both on for 11 hours. Nothing seems to be working. Any thoughts? Thanks!

You might want to try an iron supplement. I have had good success with Brightwell Chaetogrow when I had similar issues a few years back.

I've also used Miracle mud on a previous tank. Also works fine (actually was miracle mud with Chaeto over it).

 

[schuby]

My chaeto kept dying until I started dosing iron. What is your iron level, as per your ICP tests? On this site, you usually will only find mention of dosing iron when you search for "Chaeto dying". I dose about 3 mL of Ferrion a week for my 140 gal (total H2O volume) with chaeto about the size of a basketball (no tumbling, turn over once a week).

 

[fishface NJ]

I used a medium aquafuge2 on a 90 and 40b. If you buy this do not purchase the light that can come with it. Buy one off of ebay or amazon that is pink in color. It works well

 

[Brandon McHenry]

I don't want this thread to stray too far from my Miracle Mud question.....but I'd like to side track briefly and ask a "Chaeto question":

It's been baffling me why I can't get algae to grow despite adequate nutrients. (I do add trace elements and ICP tests indicate I'm doing pretty well with them). Again, I'm wondering about the tin but also lighting. So I wonder if anyone has any thoughts about the lighting of my HOB refugium. (I have to wonder about the basic design of this thing.....probably not the best). I was also concerned about flow and got rid of the pump that pumps water (and solids) into the refugium directly from the MT and replaced it with a stronger pump that pumps "clean" water from the last sump compartment. Here is the refugium with a white LED light that comes with it:
Large AquaFuge2 Hang on Back Refugium with LED Lighting - CPR Aquatics - Bulk Reef Supply
I also added this light: Auqa Gadget ChaetoMax 2-n-1 Refugium LED (18 Watt) - Innovative Marine - Bulk Reef Supply (The original light by itself didn't seem to penetrate thru a thick ball of chaeto).
I glued 2" legs on it and glued it on the back (middle) of the refugium.
I've played with many combinations of lighting and duration: Both on for 8, 10 or 12 hours; One on for 6 hours followed by the other for 6 hours; Presently, both on for 11 hours. Nothing seems to be working. Any thoughts? Thanks!

Trace elements could be an issue but I’ve grown chaeto for years without ever adding any additional elements. The light could be at play as well. I run the IM Chaetomax on my chaeto for my AIO reef and it grows like a weed! I have almost undetectable N/P but I also feed 5 times a day. I like to run my light for 12 on 12 off opposite the display. Do you have a picture of the setup?

 

[Dr. Jim]

My chaeto kept dying until I started dosing iron. What is your iron level, as per your ICP tests? On this site, you usually will only find mention of dosing iron when you search for "Chaeto dying". I dose about 3 mL of Ferrion a week for my 140 gal (total H2O volume) with chaeto about the size of a basketball (no tumbling, turn over once a week).

I use T.M. Pro which is high in Fe to begin with and also dose KZ Fe (1 drop per day for 40 gal system. I add it directly into refugium along with Iodine and Zn). ICP test fluctuate (and probably aren't real accurate for Fe anyway):
6/27/20....3.18 ug/l (Triton)
8/13..........n.u. (ATI)
10/6.........1.82 (ATI)
10/19.......n.n. (OCEAMO)
11/4.........2.11 (ATI)
11/17...... 1.6 (Triton)
11/23...... n.u. (ATI)

 

[Dr. Jim]

I used a medium aquafuge2 on a 90 and 40b. If you buy this do not purchase the light that can come with it. Buy one off of ebay or amazon that is pink in color. It works well

I added this one on the back: Auqa Gadget ChaetoMax 2-n-1 Refugium LED (18 Watt) - Innovative Marine - Bulk Reef Supply but still use the white one that came with the refugium on the top.

Did you actually try the white LED that comes with it and found problems, or did you buy the refugium without that light? Thanks.

 

[Dr. Jim]

Any more Miracle Mud experiences with SPS?

 

[theMeat]

Having a tank with virtually no water change for 9 years I have not dosed iron, or any other elements other than magnesium, alk and calcium.
Have found throu experimenting that cheato likes red/blue, caulerpra likes daylight spectrum.
As far as miracle mud have been using it but not replacing it nearly as much as what’s recommended. Think it slowly releases trace elements and offers lots nitrate benefits for its size

 

[Dr. Jim]

Having a tank with virtually no water change for 9 years I have not dosed iron, or any other elements other than magnesium, alk and calcium.
Have found throu experimenting that cheato likes red/blue, caulerpra likes daylight spectrum.
As far as miracle mud have been using it but not replacing it nearly as much as what’s recommended. Think it slowly releases trace elements and offers lots nitrate benefits for its size

Wow. No water changes and no trace element additions? Do you have SPS? If so, could you post a tank photo? Thanks!

 

[Reeferdude1888]

hi i use mm in my sump i have used it in nearly all my tanks and i have found caulerpa prolifera works realy well with it with a white light , i currently use mm in my sump and i to run it with cheato but i dont find that the growth of cheato under a red light produces a great growth unlike the the caullerpa under white light .

 

[theMeat]

Wow. No water changes and no trace element additions? Do you have SPS? If so, could you post a tank photo? Thanks!

No sps. Not my thing. Like movement. Will post up some pics later

 

[minus9]

I use miracle mud in my sps tank, along with chaeto, but I'm running the reef moonshiners method, which doses trace elements daily and corrections once a month after ICP test. My daily dosing consists of iron, cobalt, chromium (manganese when needed) iodide and vanadium. My NO3 is usually around 1ppm and my PO4 is anywhere between .12 to .24ppm, but usually hovers around .15ppm. I have to pull chaeto out every 10-14 days or it starts to slow down the flow in my sump substantially. In fact, I'm pulling some today, because it's long overdue. I don't think tin would stunt the growth, in fact, it would most likely pull it from the water.
I agree with the others that you probably need to dose a little iron, iodide and maybe potassium (most of which is found in brightwells ChaetoGro)?

 

[Dr. Jim]

I use miracle mud in my sps tank, along with chaeto, but I'm running the reef moonshiners method, which doses trace elements daily and corrections once a month after ICP test. My daily dosing consists of iron, cobalt, chromium (manganese when needed) iodide and vanadium. My NO3 is usually around 1ppm and my PO4 is anywhere between .12 to .24ppm, but usually hovers around .15ppm. I have to pull chaeto out every 10-14 days or it starts to slow down the flow in my sump substantially. In fact, I'm pulling some today, because it's long overdue. I don't think tin would stunt the growth, in fact, it would most likely pull it from the water.
I agree with the others that you probably need to dose a little iron, iodide and maybe potassium (most of which is found in brightwells ChaetoGro)?

Thanks for that info. Wish I could get a handful of your chaeto! I do dose those (and other) elements daily and ICP tests indicate that they are all adequate which is what is puzzling. I'm reading other threads where others have had problems and traced it to the lighting. I plan to try a new light next. Thanks for helping.

 

[Rick5]

I used an AI Fuge light for about a year. It did a killer job of growing chaeto. Granted, there are cheaper options out there. The fixture put out a good amount of red light (among others). If I still had it I would lend it to you to try.

 

[Dr. Jim]

I used an AI Fuge light for about a year. It did a killer job of growing chaeto. Granted, there are cheaper options out there. The fixture put out a good amount of red light (among others). If I still had it I would lend it to you to try.

I read great reviews about that light. Right now I need a strip light for the HOB but plan to keep that light in mind for my next build. Thanks for helping, Rick.

 

[minus9]

Thanks for that info. Wish I could get a handful of your chaeto! I do dose those (and other) elements daily and ICP tests indicate that they are all adequate which is what is puzzling. I'm reading other threads where others have had problems and traced it to the lighting. I plan to try a new light next. Thanks for helping.

Forgot to mention that I use a Kessil H160.