Help, copper not treating ich!

[Jjd531]

Hello, I have been dealing with what I believe to be an ich outbreak, originally I suspected velvet due to the size of the white spots but I've come to the conclusion its ich because it isn't very lethal. The fish have been in quarantine and medicated for about 2 weeks at around 2.5ppm copper safe, or at least according to the calculator formula and how much I added. Why at therapeutic doses is the ich coming back? Is there a chance I could be dealing with something else maybe another parasite? When the fish went into QT and prior to getting medicated it seemed they were getting worse then better upon medicating? The tanks have not had water changes yet so copper should be stable, there's no carbon, just biological media and a single live rock for the fish to hide behind. Does copper safe suck? I have cupramine as well but I am treating tangs and know they are more sensitive which is why I opted to use copper safe. My display has been clear of fish for about 2 and a half weeks so I still have another 6 weeks to figure out how the heck to cure the ick from these fish otherwise I have no idea what to do as I don't want to add them back to the display with ich. And before anyone's asks no I have not actually tested the copper but I've added about 30ml to a 20 gallon tank which according to the calculations should be more than enough to reach therapeutic range. This leads me to my next question, I assume im dealing with an external parasite but could it be internal and Im treating with the wrong medicine? Also according to copper safe, it shouldn't precipitate so there's no reason to think my copper evaporated from the water. I'm honestly at a loss right now on why the spots came back on the tangs, the other fish LOOK clear but that doesn't really mean anything if one has it they all got it. The only thing I'm not doing right now is adding probiotics such as succulent, but I am using seachem marine food which claims to have probiotics and seems like the best thing I can feed right now.
And last question this is important, how long can my fish be in the copper? As i said I believe I've been in therapeutic levels since October 1st and im willing to let them sit till November 1st till I try something else. I was actually planning on water changing and removing copper yesterday but the fish clearly started getting spots again.
Any help would be so greatly appreciated

 

[Saltyreef]

Something as simple at wethands in the QT tank from the display they were in could have reinfected them.
If you didnt transfer to sterile QT after 14 days they need 30 days in the copper.

 

[Tamberav]

Hello, I have been dealing with what I believe to be an ich outbreak, originally I suspected velvet due to the size of the white spots but I've come to the conclusion its ich because it isn't very lethal. The fish have been in quarantine and medicated for about 2 weeks at around 2.5ppm copper safe, or at least according to the calculator formula and how much I added. Why at therapeutic doses is the ich coming back? Is there a chance I could be dealing with something else maybe another parasite? When the fish went into QT and prior to getting medicated it seemed they were getting worse then better upon medicating? The tanks have not had water changes yet so copper should be stable, there's no carbon, just biological media and a single live rock for the fish to hide behind. Does copper safe suck? I have cupramine as well but I am treating tangs and know they are more sensitive which is why I opted to use copper safe. My display has been clear of fish for about 2 and a half weeks so I still have another 6 weeks to figure out how the heck to cure the ick from these fish otherwise I have no idea what to do as I don't want to add them back to the display with ich. And before anyone's asks no I have not actually tested the copper but I've added about 30ml to a 20 gallon tank which according to the calculations should be more than enough to reach therapeutic range. This leads me to my next question, I assume im dealing with an external parasite but could it be internal and Im treating with the wrong medicine? Also according to copper safe, it shouldn't precipitate so there's no reason to think my copper evaporated from the water. I'm honestly at a loss right now on why the spots came back on the tangs, the other fish LOOK clear but that doesn't really mean anything if one has it they all got it. The only thing I'm not doing right now is adding probiotics such as succulent, but I am using seachem marine food which claims to have probiotics and seems like the best thing I can feed right now.
And last question this is important, how long can my fish be in the copper? As i said I believe I've been in therapeutic levels since October 1st and im willing to let them sit till November 1st till I try something else. I was actually planning on water changing and removing copper yesterday but the fish clearly started getting spots again.
Any help would be so greatly appreciated

I would buy a high range hanna copper test kit imo... with QT I wouldn't skimp. If the range isn't correct and you just hide the parasite, it will come back in a place you don't want it... like your DT.

Copper safe is known for being inconsistent in its concentration and I wouldn't trust a calculated dosage. Also live rock also absorbs copper.

I personally use TTM + peroxide methods for disease. It is a lot more work and a lot of salt though than copper.

 

[Peng1606]

You need to test your copper level. Copper safe is not consistent so worse still if using calculations only.
I use copper power which is fairly consistent but even that using calculations and checking with Hanna checker I get slightly lower results and especially if you have live rock which can absorb copper and drop levels...

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Can you post a clear photo of the fish, we can try to confirm you diagnosis. I've found Coppersafe to work fairly well as a preventative, or for minor infections, but it clearly is not as effective in moderate to severe outbreaks of ich. Copper Power and a good copper test kit would be my choice.

jay

 

[Jjd531]

Can you post a clear photo of the fish, we can try to confirm you diagnosis. I've found Coppersafe to work fairly well as a preventative, or for minor infections, but it clearly is not as effective in moderate to severe outbreaks of ich. Copper Power and a good copper test kit would be my choice.

jay

I wish I could, the photos won't come out but it looks like just really tiny white spots like sand grain sized, which is originally why I thought velvet, but considering nothing is dead I think ich.

 

[Jjd531]

Something as simple at wethands in the QT tank from the display they were in could have reinfected them.
If you didnt transfer to sterile QT after 14 days they need 30 days in the copper.

Oh I have not even TOUCHED the qt water. Only drop in food and used a syringe to add copper power. There is zero transfer. And if I did touch display then qt or visa versa I would definitely rinse my hands off first. Since the outbreak I have been extremely delicate. Also, I have an API test kit for copper, im already a little bias in assuming its not going to be terribly accurate but I will test both the QTs and see what the copper levels are looking like. I would love to invest in a hanna tester but I don't have the funds at the moment to go all out like that. I see people saying copper safe is less consistent, but that isn't going to affect the treatment of disease as long as its within therapeutic levels? I don't see why one form of copper would kill ich while another wouldn't. Copper safe IMO seemed like a good choice, especially since I'm treating scaless fish.

 

[Saltyreef]

Oh I have not even TOUCHED the qt water. Only drop in food and used a syringe to add copper power. There is zero transfer. And if I did touch display then qt or visa versa I would definitely rinse my hands off first. Since the outbreak I have been extremely delicate. Also, I have an API test kit for copper, im already a little bias in assuming its not going to be terribly accurate but I will test both the QTs and see what the copper levels are looking like. I would love to invest in a hanna tester but I don't have the funds at the moment to go all out like that. I see people saying copper safe is less consistent, but that isn't going to affect the treatment of disease as long as its within therapeutic levels? I don't see why one form of copper would kill ich while another wouldn't. Copper safe IMO seemed like a good choice, especially since I'm treating scaless fish.

Its really not recommended to use copper safe without an accurate digital tester as there have been reports of inconsistant potency.
Chelated copper is generally easier on the fish too.

But back to my other point, they must be treated at verified theraputic levels for 14 days then transfered to a STERILE QT, or youll need to wait the full 30 days. I dont believe you have met these criteria.

 

[Jjd531]

Oh please excuse my idiocy but I AM USING COPPER POWER Not copper safe!

 

[cshouston]

I’m surprised the ich hasn’t gone away by now, but like someone else mentioned, you need a copper test to verify therapeutic levels. I tried API with copper power first, but it’s very hard to read so I ended up having a Hanna checker overnighted. I highly recommend just getting one of those to start with.

I’ve had my fish in 2ppm of copper safe for just shy of two weeks and the symptoms are gone. They’re going into a new, sterile QT tank with 2ppm of copper power in a few days, and then I’m going to start lowering the levels over the next two weeks, followed by 10 days of general cure as prophylaxis.

It might help to do a small water change every few days and really vacuum the bottom of the QT tank to remove any parasites that have fallen off, as well. Just be sure to treat the replacement water with copper to maintain therapeutic dosage. Get that Hanna checker!

 

[Saltyreef]

Oh please excuse my idiocy but I AM USING COPPER POWER Not copper safe!

So if you ARE using CP, and assuming you are at theraputic levels, above 2.5ppm, havent had any cross contamination that still leaves you needing to treat for a full 30 days or transfering @ day 14 to a sterile QT tank.

 

[cshouston]

Oh, and it was verified in another thread some time ago that the minimum therapeutic dosage is 1.5ppm. The manufacture of copper power confirmed this, but their bottles still provide instructions to reach 2.5ppm. Either one is likely to be fine, but you need to verify those levels.

 

[vetteguy53081]

If it is Ich, you should be able to count the salt grains. If it is endless dots with the looks f the galaxy. . . velvet which treat differently.
Pics REALLY REALLY would help.

 

[Spieg]

Copper can be deadly if over dosed. I would not even consider using it without some kind of test kit.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Copper can be deadly if over dosed. I would not even consider using it without some kind of test kit.

Test kit is a must especially if it goes Over 2

 

[Saltyreef]

Oh, and it was verified in another thread some time ago that the minimum therapeutic dosage is 1.5ppm. The manufacture of copper power confirmed this, but their bottles still provide instructions to reach 2.5ppm. Either one is likely to be fine, but you need to verify those levels.

Its been a while since i quarantined so i quoted the wrong ppm. It should be 2.0ppm not 2.5ppm.
They've actually confirmed a strain of velvet getting past 1.75ppm of theraputic copper so now recommend 2.0ppm.

This is the protocol I use and have never lost fish or had ich/velvet return.

My Current QT Process

UPDATE, 10/9/22: For those looking for quarantine information, our current process is kept updated on the first page of this thread (post any questions at the end of the thread). https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/current-quarantine-protocol.825055/ Thanks, Jay Hemdal I am frequently...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Jjd531]

If it is Ich, you should be able to count the salt grains. If it is endless dots with the looks f the galaxy. . . velvet which treat differently.
Pics REALLY REALLY would help.

They are really small and their do seem to be a lot of them but again I've seen them close to 3 weeks now I assume fish would be dead if it were velvet.. IF it is velvet how is it treated differently? copper power says it should clear up both. Also I do plan on going to at least 2 ppm copper

 

[Saltyreef]

They are really small and their do seem to be a lot of them but again I've seen them close to 3 weeks now I assume fish would be dead if it were velvet.. IF it is velvet how is it treated differently? copper power says it should clear up both. Also I do plan on going to at least 2 ppm copper

You should have planned earlier. They need minimum of 30 days in 2ppm copper.
Or the Tank transfer @ 14 days.

Treatment is pretty much identical with copper for ich or velvet.

 

[vetteguy53081]

They are really small and their do seem to be a lot of them but again I've seen them close to 3 weeks now I assume fish would be dead if it were velvet.. IF it is velvet how is it treated differently? copper power says it should clear up both. Also I do plan on going to at least 2 ppm copper

I used Polyp Labs Medic for velvet and gone in 3 days. Will also work on ich
Start off with a freshwater bath and copper sulfate is an effective treatment for marine velvet, however, some fish such as clownfish, butterfly fish, and several other saltwater fish don't tolerate copper sulfate very well. Symptoms of copper poisoning : Popeye, rapid respiration, darting and balance problems.

 

[Jjd531]

Just an update I've since ordered a hanna checker and will be able to PROPERLY test the copper. I tried the api kit and it was trash, I couldn't read the results. I'm probably gonna do a water change while I wait for the checker to arrive and will essentially start the whole QT process over from wherever my copper is after a water change. Then I'll follow through with a full 30 days. Also I avoid freshwater dips because I don't see the benefit of doing it if: A, the fish isn't cured, and B, the fish is already sick and stressed and getting pulled from home display I feel like this is just too much extra stress