Help finding root cause of ammonia spike

[Clarinuto]

I could try testing freshly mixed saltwater also I suppose... in case it has something to do with the salt? But the first test when I got a high reading was the same salt I’ve been using all along. The water changes since have also been the same salt, but a new bag. I am thinking of switching to Red Sea salt potentially, but still using instant ocean currently

 

[brandon429]

some salts mix up to minor levels of ammonia/not a big deal, let the test water age half a day gtg

 

[Clarinuto]

some salts mix up to minor levels of ammonia/not a big deal, let the test water age half a day gtg

Which test water should I let age? New saltwater?

 

[brandon429]

yes the new mix, in case organics in the powdered salt break down into ammonia upon hydration. give that a few hours to clear up after mixing and that ammonia wont be there it'll be good for baseline measure using saltwater we know has none. You are building up a neat test quality comparison thread in your pics/procedures its really helpful for others who trace ammonia, ill link it now to our thread on page one under a heading / tracking a test verification

 

[brandon429]

even before testing is confirmed, I like to stack a lot on the line regarding predictions as it really presses us to cycle tanks in certain ways if the predictions don't pan out. we make these predictions based on prior successful cycles collected, the whole point of the exercise is to know when to trust an aquarium and when not to

your aquarium passed certain time and cycling markers such that you felt ok presenting it fish, animals and feed. and no ammonia resulted

and then some results in actually fairly high numbers, and the biosystem reflects it in no way. No clouding, no smell that is requisite for overcoming a systems balance such that millions of new bac are feeding on mass rot...no form of animal loss/carcass degrading in system

plant based feed (low protein/nori although yes it has some its not like a beef stick)

fish swimming in that pic in the middle, by rule if ammonia is present its burning their gills, they pant at the top.

and lastly, the big one:

*for any set reef aquarium to start being unable to keep ammonia at bay, after keeping it at bay, the source of ammonia must exceed 4+ ppm a day, as cycled tanks are known to process that much raw ammonia in 24 hours**

that means we already know IF your tests are right, you don't just have a small source of ammonia, you have a massive source and it should be stinky and quite evident

but that reef is pristine
and, the ammonia must be -compounding- daily due to lack of bac/death of bac. It cannot just go up and down and be a true source of input into the tank, its overcoming a massive amnt of filtration area between that live rock n sand alone, not counting and skimming or extra surface area in a sump. all that detail was behind my no call of ammonia.


-ok, bring em test readings
B
great thread for helping others to hunt/trace this compound. if you truly have it in the tank, that's a huge bad sign.

 

[Clarinuto]

What you say makes lots of sense. I’m just paranoid because I really don’t want to hurt anyone in there currently. Can prime skew the results at all? I’ve still been adding it regularly out of fear the tests are reading correctly.

I will post new test results as soon as I have them. Can’t thank you enough for explaining and helping with this situation

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

I've used prime off and on . You need the Seachem ammonia test kit, if using Prime. Free ammonia is the one to be concern.
Until you test with that kit. Won't know what's up.

 

[brandon429]

Prime is the cause I bet, we have it listed in the cycling thread as an adulterant for reef hobby testers. If ammonia was there, it's in safe form but that same form registers on the unsafe ammonia kit.

Even on google srchs prime is a listed adulterant for ammonia and nitrite tests its a strong potential factor here




the way ammonia readings occur for us has shaped the way we run reef aquariums drastically in this hobby

Once ammonia testing began, the classic en masse .25 reading made everyone refuse to clean sandbeds, refuse to access rock to clean out the waste (And every cyano challenge thread and green hair algae thread you can find on the web is the endpoint of that line of reefing)

Since ammonia seemed to generate at the slightest insult, it was widespread and definitely written that disturbances cause recycling and accessing the tank was the risk, even large water changes were discouraged the first two decades of our hobby. 20% max, every two weeks was the universal rule.


But it wasn't the case, Fast forward 2018 here's fifty sandbed flips below

It would have worked just the same in 1987 regardless of what the test kits of the day said was occurring. No ammonia was generated in our sand bed flips because we never contacted sensitive stuff to the waste in the sandbed, no testing is needed to just remove mud.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-official-sand-rinse-thread-aka-one-against-many.230281/page-14

That's two different large threads where ammonia is banked on being so predictable that nobody's tank dies while we do crazy stuff like skip cycles / flip sandbeds or rinse them with hot tap water then reuse them. I hope all this adds up for you to be invasion free the whole time you reef, because we know ammonia won't surprise us we can access a tank as needed.


Filtration bacteria are never killed by aquarists unless you medicate the tank or boil or freeze the system, that extreme. All manner of cleanings in between are safe says big thread

 

[Clarinuto]

Prime is the cause I bet, we have it listed in the cycling thread as an adulterant for reef hobby testers. If ammonia was there, it's in safe form but that same form registers on the unsafe ammonia kit.

Even on google srchs prime is a listed adulterant for ammonia and nitrite tests its a strong potential factor here




the way ammonia readings occur for us has shaped the way we run reef aquariums drastically in this hobby

Once ammonia testing began, the classic en masse .25 reading made everyone refuse to clean sandbeds, refuse to access rock to clean out the waste (And every cyano challenge thread and green hair algae thread you can find on the web is the endpoint of that line of reefing)

Since ammonia seemed to generate at the slightest insult, it was widespread and definitely written that disturbances cause recycling and accessing the tank was the risk, even large water changes were discouraged the first two decades of our hobby. 20% max, every two weeks was the universal rule.


But it wasn't the case, Fast forward 2018 here's fifty sandbed flips below

It would have worked just the same in 1987 regardless of what the test kits of the day said was occurring. No ammonia was generated in our sand bed flips because we never contacted sensitive stuff to the waste in the sandbed, no testing is needed to just remove mud.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-official-sand-rinse-thread-aka-one-against-many.230281/page-14

That's two different large threads where ammonia is banked on being so predictable that nobody's tank dies while we do crazy stuff like skip cycles / flip sandbeds or rinse them with hot tap water then reuse them. I hope all this adds up for you to be invasion free the whole time you reef, because we know ammonia won't surprise us we can access a tank as needed.


Filtration bacteria are never killed by aquarists unless you medicate the tank or boil or freeze the system, that extreme. All manner of cleanings in between are safe says big thread

Thanks! I did read about Prime interfering with API tests, but wasn’t sure if that applied to the Red Sea tests.

@Jomama suggested I get the Sea Chem test to evaluate free ammonia, which I can try also.

I tested my tank water this morning and it has gone down again to .2. I did take pictures but the coloring in the pictures isn’t accurate due to dim outdoor lighting I guess.

I will also try testing new saltwater today. I wasn’t able to do that last night. Until then, I’m keeping my fingers crossed that everything is aok!

 

[Clarinuto]

Update: yesterday my ammonia test results on tank water was 0 both morning and night. Results on freshly made saltwater was also 0.

I had ordered the Sea chem ammonia test, which was supposed to be delivered yesterday. It wasn’t... said “delivery attempted but unsuccessful” which is strange given that I live in an ungated neighborhood at a house with a porch and mailbox. I’m guessing the package was accidentally overlooked during the person’s normal route. So, long story short, I am not able to test with that kit currently and not sure if it matters at this point anyway if my levels are registering at 0 again....

Nitrates are high for where they’ve been trending over the life of the tank, which does make me still suspicious that something was causing ammonia to be in the tank. It’s hard for me not to still believe that the issue has something to do with good bacteria being depleted (even if it wasn’t the UV sterilizer). I added good bacteria over multiple days and the ammonia is now down to 0 on the test. Was there ever harmful ammonia? Was bacteria fine and I didn’t need to do anything? No idea. But I do feel relieved that no one has died and the test results are back where I want them (besides somewhat high nitrates)

I’m still planning on obsessively testing for a while in fear that something is or could be still going on... so I might try to report back and update this thread while I am still on guard

 

[brandon429]

can you add prime to the nsw test

-the bac added are not harmful. somewhere in the 12 pages of the cycling thread is the statement that adding bac out of concern isn't harmful, bac are added everytime you sneeze near a tank or your dog shakes its coat clean, or when we dip arms to arrange stuff, bac is in and out always, by rule.

I vote no ammonia for the issue, we're still one confound away from testing confirmation *and* even if we add prime to the sample and it doesn't read ammonia, that doesnt mean your tank has free ammonia burning things as there's no ammonia in the test sample either. Technically for the clear saltwater test + prime to be valid here you'd need to spike ammonia then cure it with prime, then register ammonia on a test kit. That's what I feel is going on in your tank.


Prime isn't adding false readings... its binding ammonia that every reef produces and the tests are sensitive enough to show the bound/safe/ammonia that is there as a reading/but its not the same as free ammonia which burns gills and causes reactions in organisms we can see each and every time


any source available to be keeping ammonia above oxidation levels in your system this long would have to be a large dead animal there is no other route for the matter. If your RRrocks weren't fully cycled upon use, then that system could have never taken fish for a week and shown zero ammonia but it did. when ammonia comes about after a large period of no ammonia, that's a challenge to the legitimacy of the test though it doesn't mean the tester is bad, there could be adulterants at play. Im going to ask for the big guns to join up, not everyone will agree with me there's zero ammonia and we want the push/pull of good debate here, that's how we evolve. this thread has been linked to my cycling thread its great because we're not through putting finality on the matter. Im going to ask the best analytic debaters I know to join up and see your pics, details, pre issue testing readings, etc.

my vote, not a single ammonia concern whatsoever.

I feel 90% sure whats causing the readings but not 100%./ ok team where's the ammonia, scavenger hunt no pun intented.

@Lasse


@Sallstrom

@Scott Campbell

Sallstrom this is neat to consider because what if one of your work tanks started registering ammonia after not having any...that type of tracing you'd have to do to keep your displays alive is what we're trying to run here by type remotely. Im happy the OP is so willing to stay engaged/post pics/try new testing angles, we've got a neat chance to source out ammonia ghost/real readings here.

*ammonia test issues right or wrong are a massive impact in our hobby. If you take measures when not required, then the retailers get free $ and the worst part is loss of trust in a biosystem. Hesitancy in cleaning and invasion control is sure to follow in order to prevent system upset.

if you don't take measures, everyone knows ammonia is so dangerous that to be able to produce it uncontrollably in a tank + not be able to filter it is certain doom.

*we want the perfect mid ground where we know if ammonia is truly present using methods other than a single test kit. if it is, then the remedy is applied and the source neutralized. If it isn't, then not a passing thought is given to the test that indicated it and the system proceeds in full trust.



I can't help but not see doom in the OP's pics. the clownfish are not in doom. If there is a true ammonia source here outpacing what the system can naturally oxidize, after all these fish didn't stop making waste and we're dealing in only trace levels here, then Id like to know what that source is, and how the system if its not mature is oxidizing the other ppm daily given off by the fish

The reason Im hoping one or all three of the above show up to analyze the thread is due to good detail work they post in other threads, being able to call an ammonia reading as correct or not based on posted details actually ties in directly to lots of stuff us four were debating about earlier in the summer.

I feel that as a push against my stance that there is no ammonia event, the fact the live rock isn't actual rock from a reef can be investigated. I noticed it was RRR type rock from the pics, and those technically can be sold to buyers uncycled and only painted with that coralline which we can now spot easily in pics.

The LFS that sold it that way would have to be kind of scheming if they're not really hydrating it before selling it as live, but at least that's a potential confound for my vote as it may be possible to claim your system isn't cycled still. I cannot fathom one other possible cause if your tests are right, and adding nori and a rubber band is what drove things over the edge. it'd have to be bioload+ non matured rocks causing it.

 

[Lasse]

What's the pH of the tank?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Clarinuto]

What's the pH of the tank?

Sincerely Lasse

The last week and a half, it’s been between 8.15 and 8.2. Prior to that it was more like 8.0 to 8.15

 

[brandon429]

thanks for joining up L

 

[vetteguy53081]

Something has spoiled or decayed in the system. As simple as uneaten food or carcass or even dead snail?
Poor filtration or water flow can also be a cause. Time to investigate

 

[Clarinuto]

Something has spoiled or decayed in the system. As simple as uneaten food or carcass or even dead snail?
Poor filtration or water flow can also be a cause. Time to investigate

It is possible I have been overfeeding. I have never cared for saltwater before, only fresh, and my fish seem to not want anything to do with dry foods currently so I’ve been feeding frozen twice a day. However, I actually get more concerned about the CUC not getting enough food rather than too much because I never see any food make it to the bottom.

I don’t think poor water flow could be the issue... I worry about too much currently with 2 power heads, a return on my refugium, and 3 additional flows coming from 2 filters and a gfo reactor. It was 4 when I had the uv sterilizer running. As for filtration, I guess I can’t say. My sandbed stays clean and I have been lucky to have no major algae issues. My tests prior to this week for ammonia were always at 0, nitrate has been between 2 and 5, and phosphate has ranged from 0 to .5.

As for something rotting, I wouldn’t know what. I pulled out all snail shells when ammonia showed up on one test. Kept empties aside and made sure all snails were moving before returning to the tank. Besides that, I only have shrimp, a few hermit crabs, and a few fish. All are accounted for still.

Every day I’ve been testing ammonia twice since it read above zero and it has gone down throughout the week despite me not removing any traceable sources besides a few small water changes.

I do worry about the bit of detritus on the bottom of my fuge. However, I was told earlier in the chain that it is nothing and not cause for concern.

I also worried that I had build up in the filters, but they were also fine when I cleaned them and added fresh carbon.

 

[Rattzreef]

Has something been sprayed around the tank recently? Cleaning products, Febreze, Lysol, etc.? With the ease of entry that bacteria can enter a system, aerosolized particles from cleaning products could get in just as easily. The Prime theory is an interesting one too and I'm tagging along to see how this develops. I bring up cleaning supplies because many use ammonia to be effective. It is quite odd that ammonia would show up so suddenly in an obviously cycled tank.

 

[Lasse]

Worst case - your total ammonia (NH3/NH4) concentration is really 0.8 - 1.2 and pH around 8.15 -> toxic ammonia (NH3) concentration will be around 0.05 to 0.08 ppm. This concentration is not acute toxic but could be sublethal if it is prolonged for weeks or even months and causing stress symptoms.

However - many hobby tests for total ammonia (NH3/NH4) are IMO not reliable and probably does Sea Chems ammonia alert - which only measure the concentration of toxic ammonia gas (NH3) - a better job. However - I have not personally test it by my self. The total ammonia tests kit I have own experiences of.

To try to identify the problems I will list both contributers to the concentrations ("producers") and which processes counteract the concentration of ammonia (NH3/NH4)

"Producers" of NH3/NH4

1. Fish that eat and metabolizes food. The most important factor in newly started aquariums and especially in the first three weeks.
2. Heterotrophic bacteria involved in the decay of organic matter - growing importance after around three weeks
3. Ammonification of nitrate by faculative and/or obligate anaerobic heterotrophs - mostly an important factor in mature system
4. False test equipment - only produce NH3/NH4 in our brains
5. Gas exchange by the skimmer if there is elevated NH3 levels in the surrounding air

"Consumers" of NH3/NH4

1. Algae and zooxanthella take up - more important when the photosynthetic biomass grow large
2. Gas exchange by the skimmer. Total ammonia will decrease because the NH3 (a gas) will be aerated out- remaining NH4 will convert to new NH3 according to the ratio temperature and pH determines - this new NH3 will be aerated out and ……… This process is more important if you use an oversized skimmer or aerate the water in other ways. This process will be active the whole time. Higher pH and higher temperature will speed up the process. Will be counteracted if the NH3 level in surrounding air is elevated
3. Bacterial nitrification - NH3/NH4 -> NO2 ->NO3 by autotrophic bacteria. Normally it will take up to 3 weeks before this process is important. The efficiency is determined by factor like substrate, oxygen concentration, biomass of autotrophic bacteria, few heterotrophic bacteria and amount of NH3/NH4. Adding nitrification bacteria the first three weeks (and only them) will IMO speed up the process. Adding every day is IMO important. This bacteria create a biofilm - they are normally not in the water column, hence UVC will not normally harm them.

I can´t say what happens in your system but I hope that my text will give you some tools to solve your problems. Not a teen page thread but the tools I use by myself when I analyze what happens in my own systems.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Clarinuto]

Has something been sprayed around the tank recently? Cleaning products, Febreze, Lysol, etc.? With the ease of entry that bacteria can enter a system, aerosolized particles from cleaning products could get in just as easily. The Prime theory is an interesting one too and I'm tagging along to see how this develops. I bring up cleaning supplies because many use ammonia to be effective. It is quite odd that ammonia would show up so suddenly in an obviously cycled tank.

Interestingly enough, it has. I asked my wife just to see if by chance she used Febreze in our living room recently and it turns out she sprayed our couches and carpet the morning of the day my ammonia tested high. This could be it!?

@Lasse @brandon429

 

[Clarinuto]

Worst case - your total ammonia (NH3/NH4) concentration is really 0.8 - 1.2 and pH around 8.15 -> toxic ammonia (NH3) concentration will be around 0.05 to 0.08 ppm. This concentration is not acute toxic but could be sublethal if it is prolonged for weeks or even months and causing stress symptoms.

However - many hobby tests for total ammonia (NH3/NH4) are IMO not reliable and probably does Sea Chems ammonia alert - which only measure the concentration of toxic ammonia gas (NH3) - a better job. However - I have not personally test it by my self. The total ammonia tests kit I have own experiences of.

To try to identify the problems I will list both contributers to the concentrations ("producers") and which processes counteract the concentration of ammonia (NH3/NH4)

"Producers" of NH3/NH4

1. Fish that eat and metabolizes food. The most important factor in newly started aquariums and especially in the first three weeks.
2. Heterotrophic bacteria involved in the decay of organic matter - growing importance after around three weeks
3. Ammonification of nitrate by faculative and/or obligate anaerobic heterotrophs - mostly an important factor in mature system
4. False test equipment - only produce NH3/NH4 in our brains
5. Gas exchange by the skimmer if there is elevated NH3 levels in the surrounding air

"Consumers" of NH3/NH4

1. Algae and zooxanthella take up - more important when the photosynthetic biomass grow large
2. Gas exchange by the skimmer. Total ammonia will decrease because the NH3 (a gas) will be aerated out- remaining NH4 will convert to new NH3 according to the ratio temperature and pH determines - this new NH3 will be aerated out and ……… This process is more important if you use an oversized skimmer or aerate the water in other ways. This process will be active the whole time. Higher pH and higher temperature will speed up the process. Will be counteracted if the NH3 level in surrounding air is elevated
3. Bacterial nitrification - NH3/NH4 -> NO2 ->NO3 by autotrophic bacteria. Normally it will take up to 3 weeks before this process is important. The efficiency is determined by factor like substrate, oxygen concentration, biomass of autotrophic bacteria, few heterotrophic bacteria and amount of NH3/NH4. Adding nitrification bacteria the first three weeks (and only them) will IMO speed up the process. Adding every day is IMO important. This bacteria create a biofilm - they are normally not in the water column, hence UVC will not normally harm them.

I can´t say what happens in your system but I hope that my text will give you some tools to solve your problems. Not a teen page thread but the tools I use by myself when I analyze what happens in my own systems.

Sincerely Lasse

Thank you for taking the time to explain this thoroughly. It is super helpful information and certainly shifts the way I have understood some of how ammonia is created and processed within the system.