Help ID These Dino's

[Tuna Melt]

Hi all, I'm having trouble ID'ing these guys, perhaps its because they are so densely packed in. For a brief moment under 250x magnification I thought they were diatoms, then I zoomed in, and to my chagrin, my worst fears were confirmed . Any help would be greatly appreciated. I am running a 40 watt sterilizer on a ~35 gallon tank to combat ich, the flow rate is ~250gph which equates to a UV Dose of ~280mw/CM2 (Per my rough calculations lol). So its not a species that breaks into the water column. My snails can eat whatever it is. I was under the impressions Dinos kill snails (although I have lost 2 of my ~15 in the last week or so) certain ones do graze right over it and mow it like a law. Its expansion has been explosive.

2000x (purportedly): https://youtube.com/shorts/NIsmVoB8etk

1000x:

Dinos 5.5.2023 (3/3)

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250x (the one that catfished me):

Dinos 5.5.2023 (2/3)

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[dwest]

Sorry, I can’t make them out. Let’s see if @taricha is around.

 

[Tuna Melt]

Sorry, I can’t make them out. Let’s see if @taricha is around.

I know its not great, I'm trying to get a better picture but I don't think this $80 microscope gets to 2000x as advertised. I think its either Large-Cell Amphidinium or Prorocentrum (mainly based on the fact that the UV is not effective). I feel like the movement is closest to Large-Cell Amphidinium but this video (https://youtube.com/shorts/NIsmVoB8etk) is of them feasting on some other Algae during a 1 day black-out so maybe they are just excited. Here's the algae https://youtube.com/shorts/xVMTUWzBrnc. The thing is, these guys have colonized everything, including the glass which is why I think they may be Prorocentrum, maybe I just want them to be Prorocentrum and I'm convincing myself they are. It would be great if they are Prorocentrum and I could shut my lights off for a bit and let my massive UV go to town.

Here is another video, going to keep trying to get a better picture (I think the stationary circles are air bubbles or something.

and here is another video: https://youtube.com/shorts/Srj7fgs48co

Thanks for all the help folks!

 

[dwest]

You might be right about the dino type. I still don’t know. I bet we’ll get a ID sometime soon. But you have a lot of other stuff (algae and diatoms). That’s good. Snails alive is good too.

Your rock looks new. I think your tank has the chance to get by the ugly stage without a lot intervention.

But, if it were my tank, I’d make sure I had measurable nitrates and phosphates. And I would temporarily plumb the UV directly from the tank and back to the tank. The plumbing of the UV does seem to make a big difference at times. I would also siphon out dinos as much as possible.

 

[Tuna Melt]

You might be right about the dino type. I still don’t know. I bet we’ll get a ID sometime soon. But you have a lot of other stuff (algae and diatoms). That’s good. Snails alive is good too.

Your rock looks new. I think your tank has the chance to get by the ugly stage without a lot intervention.

But, if it were my tank, I’d make sure I had measurable nitrates and phosphates. And I would temporarily plumb the UV directly from the tank and back to the tank. The plumbing of the UV does seem to make a big difference at times. I would also siphon out dinos as much as possible.

Thanks a lot! Yup the rock is brand, spankin' new. The UV is plumbed directly into the tank to combat Ich (lucky first two months of reefing , jk jk builds character I suppose). This morning I started dosing MB7, have Sponge Excel on the way, and am currently blocking light to the tank, I was thinking 48 hours of darkness to try and coax the Dinos into the water column if they are Prorocentrum. I also shut down my algae scrubber which was what bottomed out my phosphates for a day and a half and got me into this mess. Given the other biodiversity present, would you suggest adjusting my course of action? Deff some other ugly stage critters at play here (from what my novice self can deduce)! Here are some better pictures and videos from this mornings microscope sesh:

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Possibly Large Cell and Small Cell Amphidinium?!??!?!:

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[dwest]

I think your plan is good. You might have to dose nitrates and phosphates as well to keep them measurable with those new rocks (especially phosphates).

 

[Tuna Melt]

I think your plan is good. You might have to dose nitrates and phosphates as well to keep them measurable with those new rocks (especially phosphates).

Gotcha, what are your thoughts on a dark period to flush out Prorocentrum, how long is necessary? I’ve seen conflicting reports online

 

[dwest]

Gotcha, what are your thoughts on a dark period to flush out Prorocentrum, how long is necessary? I’ve seen conflicting reports online

I’ve never done a blackout so I don’t know. I would try 2-3 days.

Once you’ve done that, I think your tank can turn itself around given enough time. Think months, not days.

A piece of real liverock is a good idea.

 

[Tuna Melt]

I’ve never done a blackout so I don’t know. I would try 2-3 days.

Once you’ve done that, I think your tank can turn itself around given enough time. Think months, not days.

A piece of real liverock is a good idea.

I guess the question is, if it’s LCA, does a blackout help them gain territory, and thus I shouldn’t do it until we know exactly what it is?

 

[dwest]

I guess the question is, if it’s LCA, does a blackout help them gain territory, and thus I shouldn’t do it until we know exactly what it is?

I just don’t know if it will help. I always viewed blackouts as a temporary fix so never tried one.

I thought you already started one from your pic, so why not keep it going? I don’t see any harm in one. Your UV set-up should be very effective if you can get them in the water column.

My thinking has evolved since I had dinos a few years back. I used to think of how can I get rid of them? Now I think about what can replace them in the biome. I bet that the silica dosing, hopefully adding a small piece of real live rock or rubble, measurable nutrients, and some time will go a long way in establishing a healthy micro environment that non-dinos can thrive.

 

[xabo]

Link to download: A Guide to Dinoflagellate Identification in Reef Aquariahttps://www.reef2reef.com › attachments › dino...

 

[Tuna Melt]

Link to download: A Guide to Dinoflagellate Identification in Reef Aquariahttps://www.reef2reef.com › attachments › dino...

Thanks, yea I’ve been referencing that. I just am having some trouble actually nailing it down. I’m new to the hobby so don’t have much experience ID’ing these guys. This morning I’m leaning toward small cell A, actually, I think they are too small to be large cell / Prorocentrum but would really love a second opinion.

 

[Tuna Melt]

I just don’t know if it will help. I always viewed blackouts as a temporary fix so never tried one.

I thought you already started one from your pic, so why not keep it going? I don’t see any harm in one. Your UV set-up should be very effective if you can get them in the water column.

My thinking has evolved since I had dinos a few years back. I used to think of how can I get rid of them? Now I think about what can replace them in the biome. I bet that the silica dosing, hopefully adding a small piece of real live rock or rubble, measurable nutrients, and some time will go a long way in establishing a healthy micro environment that non-dinos can thrive.

Hmm, interesting way of thinking about it, seems totally valid. I’m going to look into some Aquabiomics live rubble

 

[Tuna Melt]

So last night I turned the lights on for a bit (after about 36Hrs of blackout). This morning I scraped a bit of the remaining gunk off the PVC plumbing to my UV and didn’t see any Dino’s. I’m hopeful this means I’m dealing with one of the species that goes waterborne if engulfed in darkness and so my UV can be an effective tool here. *Disclaimer* I am not getting my hopes up, I totally expect them to come back with a vengeance. As always, would welcome any more experienced opinions!

here’s a video (500x): https://youtube.com/shorts/HQRz3v8IS5w?feature=share

 

[taricha]

250x (the one that catfished me):

and here is another video: https://youtube.com/shorts/Srj7fgs48co

Thanks for all the help folks!

here’s a video (500x): https://youtube.com/shorts/HQRz3v8IS5w?feature=share

almost everything in those videos is diatoms.

 

[Tuna Melt]

almost everything in those videos is diatoms.

Gotcha, thanks for taking a look! What do you think of these?

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[taricha]

Gotcha, thanks for taking a look! What do you think of these?

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first one could be small cell amphidnium, but it's impossible to get cell details. andd may not be a dino at all.
second one is just a single round cell. No idea what it is, and would not worry about something I can only find a few cells of under the scope.
third shows an assortment that is dominated and maybe held together by diatoms.

 

[Tuna Melt]

first one could be small cell amphidnium, but it's impossible to get cell details. andd may not be a dino at all.
second one is just a single round cell. No idea what it is, and would not worry about something I can only find a few cells of under the scope.
third shows an assortment that is dominated and maybe held together by diatoms.

Okay, thanks a lot for the help! Sounds like you don’t think there is a Dino issue here. Whatever the cells were seemed to disappear after the 36 HR blackout so maybe they were small cell that were coaxed into the water column and eaten by the oversized UV. I’ll go back to ‘business as usual’ but think I will keep dosing MB7 to be sure and probs still try to keep nutrients decently high for a bit (Phosphate > .05). Again, appreciate all the help!

 

[Tuna Melt]

first one could be small cell amphidnium, but it's impossible to get cell details. andd may not be a dino at all.
second one is just a single round cell. No idea what it is, and would not worry about something I can only find a few cells of under the scope.
third shows an assortment that is dominated and maybe held together by diatoms.

Hi Taricha, quick question for yo. After the blackout new growth unsurprisingly started popping up left and right. Most of it looks like Diatoms and some Cyano but there are patches that are dominated by what looks like Small Cell As (see video below). Even the areas that are dominated with other growth have these little cells buzzing around when I put it under the microscope (though not as dense as in the video below) . I would say ~30% of the new areas of growth are dominated by the Dino and the rest is comprised of some other organisms with a sprinkling of dino. I am keeping nutrients up, dosing MB7 and a single drop a day of SpongeExcel, and am also running my 40w UV directly out of the display tank. What would you suggest I do as a course of action, let the tank run its course and hope the other organisms win out over the dino?

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Thanks alot!

 

[taricha]

What would you suggest I do as a course of action, let the tank run its course and hope the other organisms win out over the dino?

The cells in that video aren't a problem dino. They are probably something like cryptomonas

Your pics of the tank show lots of nuisance growth. There will need to be a good amount of manual removal of the bulk of photosynthetic nuisance. With your regime, I expect the good will return quicker than the bad over time, given several cycles of removal.