Help Me Find The Leak

mcarroll · Dec 31, 2017

My own case that I mentioned earlier was first noticed as MASSIVE water pooling around the bottom seam on my tank and around the base of the tank on the stand. Not good!!

I was freaking out until I figured out that the new pump setup was creating a tiny wave (I mean small!) that would barely touch the top trip ever few minutes. That's all it took for water to get out of the tank. The result (which I eventually found) was that there was a tiny stream of water down the side of the tank that was never very visible since it didn't dry out....I imagine that it was only "flowing" a drip an hour or so, but it adds up!

Yellowsound · Dec 31, 2017

Ok, now we're getting somewhere. This is making a lot of sense.

Yes, the canopy sits right on the tank edge. (I confirmed w/ the tank manufacturer that this was acceptable.) Tank has been up and running for just about 4 years, and there has definitely been regular drips down the tank... during water changes and also when I use a magnetized glass scraper/cleaner. I've actually reduced the flow in my tank (=not good!) to keep overflow from happening; if I get a reasonable wave going w/ circulation pumps, the water will get to the tank's top edge.

I've considered cutting deeper teeth in the overflow to bring down the water level in the tank. I'm not exactly sure how I'd do that, but I wonder if anyone thinks this is a good idea?

I actually hope this is the cause of the water. I've been very concerned that there might be a leak in the tank somewhere.

mcarroll · Dec 31, 2017

Yellowsound said:
I've considered cutting deeper teeth in the overflow to bring down the water level in the tank. I'm not exactly sure how I'd do that, but I wonder if anyone thinks this is a good idea?

I actually hope this is the cause of the water. I've been very concerned that there might be a leak in the tank somewhere.

I doubt it's a leak at this point.

Removing teeth could also work if it's easier to do for any reason....and depending how things are running now.

Et tu Dremel?

Yellowsound · Dec 31, 2017

Oui... I suppose I could Dremel it. Makes me a little nervous to do it right over a big tank of water, but not much choice. Is there any downside to cutting deeper teeth in the weir + lowering the water level ? I can't think of anything offhand...?

mcarroll · Dec 31, 2017

Another thought:

Lowering the sump flow rate could also lower the level in the tank, again depending how things are running now.

Have you measured or closely estimated your actual sump flow rate by any chance?

Yellowsound · Dec 31, 2017

Hmmm... maybe worth a try. I estimated my flow rate once upon a time, but it's been awhile. I want to say it's somewhere between 5-10x. Approx 50 gallons total system volume, 5ft vertical, 1ft horizontal, 2-45 degree elbows, and a Sicce Syncra 2.0 return pump. The return pump is wide open right now, so I could definitely dial it back.

mcarroll · Jan 1, 2018

Sounds like you at least have plenty of room to experiment to see if it even has an effect on the water level. If the level isn't pretty high on the teeth right now (can't tell for sure in the vid) then it might not – so test it.

I did notice the corner by the back wall and the drain box....if you get waves I'm sure that would be one of the spots where water could easily have enough force to get over the back a little.

And you can use this calculator to see what your plumbing adds (friction) to the vertical lifting your pump has to do (vs gravity).
http://www.freecalc.com/fric.htm

Add the results form the calulator to your vertical lift for your total estimated head loss/pumping height. Then go to the flow curve for your pump and read the flow based on that new height. (Which, again, may be the same as the actual height if your plumbing is the right size. There are no "automatic" friction penalties...depends on how things are built.)

Yellowsound · Jan 2, 2018

Ok, thanks for all of this! I will definitely experiment w/ amount of sump flow, and will also try to get an accurate calculation on head loss (thanks for that calculator!)

So, assuming I've stopped any significant, recurring overflow/salt creep from over the top edges of the tank, I'm guessing I will continue to see the dripping water in the cabinet until all the wicked water in the styrofoam has dried up? I AM seeing signs of dripping down the back of the cabinet, just behind the plumbing. It was in other spots on the back of the cabinet, as well; I scraped it off over the weekend & cleaned everything up, and now I just see it in the spot behind the plumbing. Wonder if there's any way to dry up the water in the styrofoam more quickly, or if I just have to wait it out...?

mcarroll · Jan 19, 2018

I used dry towels to dry out the gaps in my trim and all the other crevices, but the area between the tank and stand I just had to wait.

Honestly the towel-work eliminated all the dripping pretty quick in my case, but I could still see water trapped in some spots around the trim for days longer.

Yellowsound · Jan 19, 2018

Update: I did reduce the outflow of my return pump, and there hasn’t been any spillover or salt creep at the top edge of the tank. Unfortunately I still see significant dripping in the cabinet by the plumbing, and down the back of the cabinet. The styrofoam seems to pretty well saturated.

It doesn’t seem like the bulkheads are leaking- could there be any other source of the leak? I’m scared that it’s the tank!

mcarroll · Jan 19, 2018

I was pretty freaked out the same way.....it seems like SO MUCH WATER. If you don't have access to wipe down the space to dry it out (under the tank, so how? right?) then it could take a while.

I'm not sure what else to have you check if it were something other than residual.

You have wiped down all the sides and back so if there are more leaks you running down the tank you might be able to see evidence more clearly, right?

Yellowsound · Jan 19, 2018

There definitely isn’t any water dripping from the top edges. But it definitely IS coming from the styrofoam under the tank, and dripping down the the back.

I’ve been timing the space between drips inside the cabinet, to see if it was slowing. The timing is all over the place... it will be 10 secs between drips, then 20 secs between drips the next day... it was 16 before I weston work this AM, and when I got home it was 4!!

Yellowsound · Jan 19, 2018

mcarroll · Jan 19, 2018

Anything more you can do to get at that water with a towel or shopvac or something?

mcarroll · Jan 19, 2018

Maybe roll up a towel and lay it next to the tank there where the drips appear to be forming?

Yellowsound · Jan 19, 2018

I can do that, but that obviously doesn’t get to the source of the problem. I’m contemplating draining the tank at this point- I just don’t know what else to do.

Yellowsound · Jan 20, 2018

And this AM, everything is completely different. I wedged some paper towels between the stand and the side of the tank before I went to bed last night, and put a big rolled up sheet on the floor around the stand where the drips were happening. I fully expected them to all be soaked this AM- and the paper towels definitely were- but it seems to have slowed things. In the cabinet, drips were 56 secs apart (instead of 4 secs apart, like it was when I went to bed). Now, a few hours later, there is no dripping at all inside the cabinet.

I’m somewhat relieved, but still planning for an emergency tear down/tank drain. I’ll keep wedging paper towels between the stand and tank for awhile... maybe it will actually wick the water away over time.

Yellowsound · Jan 20, 2018

...still pretty pessimistic, though. I feel like there must be a leak somewhere. Otherwise, why would the dripping get worse all of a sudden yesterday?

mcarroll · Jan 20, 2018

Yellowsound said:
I’m somewhat relieved, but still planning for an emergency tear down/tank drain. I’ll keep wedging paper towels between the stand and tank for awhile... maybe it will actually wick the water away over time.

It can't hurt too much for you to prepare for the worst, but this is about what I expected.....get as proactive as you can to remove the moisture (under the obvious limits present – you did exactly what I imagined)....and it should dry up.

If you keep that up and it's the same wet paper towel and the same 56 second drips every day, well then you've got another route for moisture to escape.

I would expect drier and drier towels and fewer and fewer drips.