Help me! Finnex 500w Water Heater Eletrocution/current Problems

[Brew12]

I tend to disagree sessile invertebrates are very sensitive to any voltage ime. Tangs get hole in head syndrome. Delt with it a lot.

I'm not sure what in my post you are disagreeing with. It seems like this is in complete agreement with what I have said.

 

[WVNed]

I am wondering if the heater mentioned is an exceptionally strong transmitter due to how the heating element is coiled inside it and is creating a lot of inductive coupling with something..

 

[Brew12]

I am wondering if the heater mentioned is an exceptionally strong transmitter due to how the heating element is coiled inside it and is creating a lot of inductive coupling with something..

I find it unlikely since the titanium housing, which is grounded, should act like a Faraday cage.

 

[WVNed]

Could a reversed polarity outlet do this? Perhaps the outlet strip only switches the assumed hot side.

 

[Brew12]

Could a reversed polarity outlet do this? Perhaps the outlet strip only switches the assumed hot side.

My best guess is that there either isn't an issue and the OP is one of those unlucky people that are sensitive to tiny amounts of voltage, or that their are multiple issues.

Most people wouldn't feel an induced voltage for more than an instant. The heater should act like a ground probe and get rid of it, anyway. If it wasn't an induced voltage and it could be felt, the GFCI should trip. I never use proximity testers (we call them widowmakers) but I don't like that the frame of the light fixture, which should also have been grounded, caused it to light up. Unfortunately, it wasn't repeatable.

This took me down the path that it could be a problem with the homes ground wiring, and I guess it could be. I was hoping to see a significant difference in voltage between the neutral and ground but it was under 1 volt.

 

[ccoffel81]

I'm not sure what in my post you are disagreeing with. It seems like this is in complete agreement with what I have said.

Your post said Current is never really an issue with marine Fish. That’s what I was disagreeing with sorry for the confusion.

 

[Brew12]

Your post said Current is never really an issue with marine Fish. That’s what I was disagreeing with sorry for the confusion.

Current isn't an issue with marine fish. That is much different than saying voltage isn't an issue. I believe voltage is an issue and can cause HLLE but I don't know what level it occurs at.

If current could be an issue for a marine fish, electrofishing would work in the ocean. If you took a marine fish and put it in an insulated tube of seawater and then ran 20 amps from one end of the tube to the other, less than 0.005 amps would go through the fish. Likely it would be much less but it is difficult to model to get an exact number.

 

[WVNed]

I am also not sure titanium would make a decent Faraday cage.

Titanium also exhibts the Lenz Effect but to a lesser extent that many other metals. For example, when a magnet is passed over a metal like silver, copper, aluminum, or brass, the moving magnet causes small electrical eddy currents to form in the metal. The electrical eddy currents have their own magnetic field which interacts with the moving magnet. The result is that the moving magnet causes the metal to move without touching it. With more senstive equipment the Lenz Effect could be measured in titanium.

 

[ccoffel81]

Current isn't an issue with marine fish. That is much different than saying voltage isn't an issue. I believe voltage is an issue and can cause HLLE but I don't know what level it occurs at.

If current could be an issue for a marine fish, electrofishing would work in the ocean. If you took a marine fish and put it in an insulated tube of seawater and then ran 20 amps from one end of the tube to the other, less than 0.005 amps would go through the fish. Likely it would be much less but it is difficult to model to get an exact number.

Electro fishing happens in an instant stray voltage is constant, that’s where the issue comes in

 

[Brew12]

I am also not sure titanium would make a decent Faraday cage.

Titanium also exhibts the Lenz Effect but to a lesser extent that many other metals. For example, when a magnet is passed over a metal like silver, copper, aluminum, or brass, the moving magnet causes small electrical eddy currents to form in the metal. The electrical eddy currents have their own magnetic field which interacts with the moving magnet. The result is that the moving magnet causes the metal to move without touching it. With more senstive equipment the Lenz Effect could be measured in titanium.

I knew titanium isn't ideal for a Faraday cage. Maybe it is a bad assumption on my part that it would be "good enough" for a 120V, 60hz system.

 

[BZOFIQ]

To the OP, did you try asking your significant other to stick their fingers in the tank (while standing with bare feet on the ground) and see if they feel the sting?

I know for a fact that if you have any dry skin/bites around nails/ripped cuticles, etc., there is a sting as soon as your hand hits the saltwater in the tank. This feels exactly like being shocked. Ask somebody else with "healthy" hands and they'll give you a strange look. I've had this exact thing happen to me and read about it in one of these forums recently as well.

Try it.

 

[BenitaSolo]

To the OP, did you try asking your significant other to stick their fingers in the tank (while standing with bare feet on the ground) and see if they feel the sting?

I know for a fact that if you have any dry skin/bites around nails/ripped cuticles, etc., there is a sting as soon as your hand hits the saltwater in the tank. This feels exactly like being shocked. Ask somebody else with "healthy" hands and they'll give you a strange look. I've had this exact thing happen to me and read about it in one of these forums recently as well.

Try it.

I did ask and my fiance did not feel the shock. I asked my cousin to do the same and he did feel the shock in the same areas as me. It is the unmistakable feeling of electricity. I can say this because it does not happen in my other tank or when the tank is unplugged. It's only when the heater is plugged into an outlet.

I am really concerned for the health of my fish. I am going to grab a GFCI wall outlet power strip to see if it trips when I become the ground... it should, right?

 

[Brew12]

I did ask and my fiance did not feel the shock. I asked my cousin to do the same and he did feel the shock in the same areas as me. It is the unmistakable feeling of electricity. I can say this because it does not happen in my other tank or when the tank is unplugged. It's only when the heater is plugged into an outlet.

I am really concerned for the health of my fish. I am going to grab a GFCI wall outlet power strip to see if it trips when I become the ground... it should, right?

It should, if it is a non-induced voltage supplied by a load on the GFCI.

 

[bblumberg]

It is a little bit off topic, but since you raised the issue of power lines, cell phones and health, I had to chime in.

Definitive results about the health effects of non-ionizing radiation are starting to appear in the peer-reviewed literature, largely from the Ramazzini Institute in Italy and also from the US National Toxicology Program.

Here is a summary of the Ramazzini cell phone study
https://ehtrust.org/wp-content/uploads/Ramazzini-Institute-Study_-Press-Q-and-A-2.pdf
Link to the original is here
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0013935118300367

The short story is that exposure to radio frequency radiation can lead to cancers in a dose-dependent manner (higher dose, more cancers).

I do not find it online yet, but the director of the Ramazzini Institute reported the results of their ongoing study regarding proximity to power lines and cancers at a meeting I attended in May. Briefly, they found that proximity to power lines increased tumor incidence and decreased lifespan in rats.

It is important to note that Ramazzini studies differ from most others (that do not report cancers) in a critical way. Most such toxicological studies treat animals for some period of time and then report on health effects at a later time, often some multiple of 30 days, but rarely, if ever the entire life span. Ramazzini exposes the animals from birth until they die of natural causes, i.e., they evaluate the entire life span and compare control to treated groups. This is a much more accurate, albeit expensive, way to do such studies and is much more relevant to human exposures.

What to do about these results is a big question. Clearly we are not going to get rid of cell phones or electricity, nor should we. However, it is probably prudent not to put high voltage power lines near to schools and homes, nor is it a good idea to put cell phone towers in the same areas.
​

You are asking the same question that farmers asked about transmission power lines being routed over their herds or if cell phones cause cancer. After many studies over many years I am not aware of any definitive answer.

In simplest terms voltage is transmitted in 2 ways. On a conductor like a wire or with a magnetic field. Flowing electricity always produces a magnetic field.

When something in the environment reacts to the magnetic field voltage is produced. It is acting as an antennae. How dangerous it is depends on the strength of the signal and the efficiency it is received.

Every electronic device you ever purchased had this warning on it.

FCC Requirement

Changes or modifications not expressly approved by the party responsible for compliance could void the user’s authority to operate the equipment.

This device complies with Part 15 of the FCC Rules. Operation is subject to the following two conditions:

1. This device may not cause harmful interference, and
2. This device must accept any interference received, including interference that may cause undesired operation.

Note: This equipment has been tested and found to comply with the limits for a Class B digital device, pursuant to Part 15 of the FCC Rules. These limits are designed to provide reasonable protection against harmful interference in a residential installation. This equipment generates, uses, and can radiate radio frequency energy, and if not installed and used in accordance with the instructions, may cause harmful interference to radio communications. However, there is no guarantee that interference will not occur in a particular installation. If this equipment does cause harmful interference to radio or television reception, which can be determined by turning the equipment off and on, the user is encouraged to try to correct the interference by one or more of the following measures:

• Reorient or relocate the receiving antenna.
• Increase the separation between the equipment and receiver.
• Connect the equipment into an outlet on a circuit different from that to which the receiver is connected.
• Consult the dealer or an experienced radio/TV technician for help.

The 2 most common effects from induced voltages are electronic interference and heating. Want to see heating? Put a bit of metal in a microwave oven.
Neither of those is likely to be a problem in a fish tank. It can make controller probes inaccurate.

In a fish tank it is necessary to measure current to figure out what you are dealing with. If you are dealing with induced voltage instead of a bare wire in a tank the amount of current measured will be 10 to 1000 times smaller.
This like measuring the current from a small radio antenna compared to a electrical outlet. They could both produce the same voltage but the outlet can supply a lot of current and therefor power. The antennae can't. So you can touch the antennae and be OK but don't stick your finger in the electrical outlet.


Not sure any of that helped but it is what it is.

 

[BZOFIQ]

... However, it is probably prudent not to put high voltage power lines near to schools and homes, nor is it a good idea to put cell phone towers in the same areas.
​

Agreed and suspected such for long time, but in NYC both the high voltage lines and cell towers are everywhere!

 

[BZOFIQ]

I did ask and my fiance did not feel the shock. I asked my cousin to do the same and he did feel the shock in the same areas as me. It is the unmistakable feeling of electricity. I can say this because it does not happen in my other tank or when the tank is unplugged. It's only when the heater is plugged into an outlet.

I am really concerned for the health of my fish. I am going to grab a GFCI wall outlet power strip to see if it trips when I become the ground... it should, right?

Get an Eheim Jager and forget about Finnex; they are crap and except one none of the 4 I bought lasted more than 6 months.

 

[Brew12]

Get an Eheim Jager and forget about Finnex; they are crap and except one none of the 4 I bought lasted more than 6 months.

The only reason I'm not convinced the heater is the issue is that it happens with the heater plugged into a power strip with that power strip turned off. At that point, it seems a ground probe would cause the exact same issues.

This one has me baffled.

 

[bblumberg]

Yeah, it is going to be very tough to establish good buffer zones in dense urban areas like NYC.

Agreed and suspected such for long time, but in NYC both the high voltage lines and cell towers are everywhere!

 

[WVNed]

There is in my opinion very little to fear. The world has been bathed in ever increasing amount of electromagnetic radiation for 100 years now and no clear danger has emerged.

The effects of 1.8 GHz radiation from a cellular device have very little in common with power line emissions.

 

[bblumberg]

You are entitled to your opinion. The main point is that there is some hazard from both cell phone towers and high voltage power lines. I know that they are not the same and did not say otherwise.

You are free to ignore this or any other hazaed. However, school kids should not be subjected to such hazards based on very poor quality studies that promise no hazard exists...

There is in my opinion very little to fear. The world has been bathed in ever increasing amount of electromagnetic radiation for 100 years now and no clear danger has emerged.

The effects of 1.8 GHz radiation from a cellular device have very little in common with power line emissions.