Help Me Increase my Return Flow- 10X needed for Triton.

Bigfudge · Aug 4, 2018

Good morning everyone,

I thought I'd reach out and see if I could get some help on how to increase my turnover through my sump to achieve the 10X suggested for Triton Method. I reworked/increased my plumbing pipe diameter, installed a 1" FMK to monitor my return's flow, and also installed 1" SeaSwirl to try and get the correct turnover rate but alas, I'm not even close.

I'm currently using a COR-20 for my return pump.

My Apex is currently showing I'm going about 579GPH of turnover which is about half of what I need to achieve the recommended 10X turnover for Triton Method.

My plumbing is as follows:

*From the COR I'm using 1.25" PVC to a Union, continuing 1.25" to a elbow

*From the elbow I continued the 1.25" to a 1.25" coupler with a reducer on one end to reduce to 1" at which time it goes to the 1" FMK.

*From the FMK it goes immediately into a 90 to a 1" Gate Valve and then 1" to the SeaSwirl.

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*I'm not really sure what I can do to Optimize my plumbing anymore. I used the largest diameter I could and space is at a premium (as always). Any ideas?

*I'm wondering if my pump is the limiting factor here but not sure what pump I could get short of a Abyzz or RedDragon that would really hit the mark with how I've got to work with. Any other pump suggestions? I'm not opposed to saving the money then buying one, but let's be real - they're expensive and I don't want to have to spend more if I don't have to.

*Is the 10x turnover really important for Triton? I know I'd like it to tumble my Macro Algae in the Fuge more for sure since I don't really get any tumbling right now ( I stir it daily).

Thanks for your time!

mcarroll · Aug 4, 2018

Bigfudge said:
installed a 1" FMK to monitor my return's flow, and also installed 1" SeaSwirl

These aren't helping.

Bigfudge said:
reduce to 1"

This makes your 1.25" plumbing job redundant.

Bigfudge said:
*Is the 10x turnover really important for Triton?

If you can't answer this, then I'll question why you're heading in this direction to begin with.

Was there a problem with how the tank was running? What did you already look at to solve any problems before embarking on this project?

From this chart...

...it looks like you should theoretically be able to achieve around 1300 GPH.

Using some quick cuff calculations, your plumbing could be adding enough friction at that flow rate to almost double the head loss.

This places your theoretical max. down closer to 800 GPH.

I suspect the addition of the flow meter and sea swirl in that friction calculation would predict the flow rate you're getting. (If we knew the K values for those devices, which we do not.)

Try it with 1.25" pipe all the way to the tank – no restrictions or valves, but elbows are fine. (You don't need the other stuff anyway. Totally extra.)

ca1ore · Aug 4, 2018

The 1" flow sensor is a big drag on flow. If you can, upsizing to the 2" makes a sizable difference.

Mortie31 · Aug 4, 2018

Can your overflow handle 10x turnover? If it can’t I’d stop trying now, if it can and if you can’t change pipework a much bigger pressure pump may get closer... but the question is do you need 10x, an educated guess is that so many triton users don’t get anywhere near it, looking at the pumps and pipework etc on lots of triton tanks and it still seems to work for them..

mcarroll · Aug 4, 2018

I haven't really heard anyone express what the real need is for the 10x so far. The vendor's promotional docs seem strangely void of detail. Explanations I've seen are very "soft", which to me more or less says unneeded.

I'd suggest the strategy of going with what's proven – match return flow to skimmer flow...or around 4-5x the display volume.

If what's proven to work well for most people turns out to be a problem, then experiment with more exotic or trendy methods if it seems to make sense at that time.

This may or may not be the case for the OP since we haven't heard back yet on why these changes were being made.

Bigfudge · Aug 4, 2018

Thanks for the replies!

@mcarroll I'm a newb when it comes to SW so I question a lot of different things. I started with Triton Method because my cousin was starting his tank on Triton as well and thought it would be easier to maintain in the long haul, assuming they got their packaging for the 3a and 3b fixed (yet to be seen).

When I originally plumbed the tank with the stock return line (3/4") I wasn't happy with the amount of turn over and it most definitely wasn't optimized. Maybe I was mistaken, but I thought the larger the diameter of the pipe, the less head pressure, even if you eventually had to reduce it. Eg. running 1.25 the majority of the way then dumbing it down to 1" would still yield lower head pressure than running 1" the whole way, but I could def. be wrong.

My overall goals are to keep a mixed reef for now. The tank has been up and running since beginning of June. I have minimal algae now and my softies and LPS are doing fine. My main concern for upping the turn over was to tumble the fuge algae to keep detritus suspended for my skimmer to take care of.

@Mortie31 My overflow should be able to handle the turnover, I have to close the gate valve substantially far before I'm able to tune the herbie for a full siphon as it is. If I had any issues, I could turn down the pump to avoid any problems.

@ca1ore good idea with the 2" version opposed to the 1". If I added the 2", is there going to be a subtantial loss in head pressure going from 1.25 to 2" back to 1.25?

Great info guys, I appreciate the help. I may or may not mess with it and leave it be since I'm getting about 5x now. I'm just new to Reefing so Ive been trying to figure my way through this and set it up the best way I can for low maintenance, high success. If triton said 10x, I wanted to try and get to 10x- just wasnt sure if it was "pivotal" to the success of using that particular method.

DesertReefT4r · Aug 4, 2018

Imo 10x sump turn over is a lot and not needed, even for Triton. I dont know how they came up with this number, I have not seen any info to justify this number, benifits or down falls tomthat turn over or using lower turn over. Keep in mind you need contact time for the skimmer and fuge. 3-5x is good imo regardless of the method used to run the tank.

Sallstrom · Aug 4, 2018

Hi,
IMO 10x turnover rate is at lot more than what is needed in most cases.
Just go with the flow you have now and use the money on something else

We run a couple of large reef tanks at my work based on the Triton idea, but with much lower turnover rate than 10x/h. Check out my build thread to see examples if you like.

/ David

Bigfudge · Aug 5, 2018

Thanks for the responses everyone, I appreciate the input!

I'm probably just going to leave it be and see where it goes. Maybe I'll yank out the SeaSwirl that I just got and make it 1.25 all the way to a 90 into the tank and see what kind of flow I get just as an experiment.

CDavmd · Aug 5, 2018

Several of us using the Cor-20 have encountered this. Over on the Neptune thread we had a little discussion about it. Basically this pump is neutered by any significant head pressure. Neptune recommends 1.25 inch pipe all the way but if you downsize at any point, you will see a drastic drop.

I am using 1 inch pipe on my RSR425XL. The problem for me and other RSR users is the terminal return from red sea is 3/4 inch. In my case I cannot top 500 gallons per hour with the Cor-20 maxed out. If I open my reactor gate valves it drops to 350-400 gph.

I also agree that Triton's recommendation of 10X seems to be rather nebulous. It is suggested that this flow rate will keep detritus suspended and off the macroalgae. Well a simple power head in the refugium can do this just as well. In my case I am using an algae reactor so I am not too worried about the 10x suggestion. If I run into issues, the only option is to switch to a much more expensive pump like an Abyzz.

biecacka · Aug 6, 2018

Maybe the 10x flow is supposed to help with the chaeto ball rotation instead of using a secondary pump to help with the flow.
I have no clue, I just threw that out there.

Corey

Bigfudge · Aug 6, 2018

biecacka said:
Maybe the 10x flow is supposed to help with the chaeto ball rotation instead of using a secondary pump to help with the flow.
I have no clue, I just threw that out there.

Corey

Thats pretty much my thinking on it. I threw in a powerhead a while back and since I have different types of Macro (IE Sea Lettuce, Red Ogo and some others, including chaeto) it was constantly getting plugged and gummed up.

I think I found a work-around over the weekend. When I re-plumbed the return line to the Sea-Swirl, I had diverted the original 3/4" return line and made it into a drain line that I dumped back into the Refugium. I added a barbed fitting to the end along with a 45 that directs the excess from that line down into the front corner of the Fuge.

Since adding the barbed fitting, it has increased the velocity and now stirs up the detritus from the bottom of the Fuge and tumbles the other Macro Algae, just not the Chaeto due to its size. So far it's worked better than expected and since the 3/4" line has no real "benefit", there's no real downside I can see.

Additionally I cleaned the COR last night and I'm now sitting at almost exactly 600 GPH. I have noticed random reductions in GPH tho. It fluctuates between 590 and 610 on average for whatever reason.

CMO · Aug 7, 2018

I'm running Triton quite successfully at 4-5x turnover of my DT. I have a few power heads in my sump and lots of DT flow to compensate. However, no power head in the fuge since it just clogs with algae quickly (I get a lot of detritus buildup under my cheato so was thinking to plumb an outlet to the bottom of my fuge from my manifold to keep detritus suspended). No issues so far about 7 months in.

Any chance you're using restricting outlet nozzles on your return? I changed out the ones that came with my tank to extra wide flange versions from BRS and got an extra 100 gph by doing so.

Also, I spent a good deal of time in the beginning trying to get my cheato tumbling (which I did accomplish with some effort). However, in the end I found it to be a useless endeavor since once your cheato grows it will become too large to tumble anyways (and I do trim mine but keep the fuge generally full to maximize filtration / ph buffering etc.) I trim / flip mine every 3 weeks or so and all is good.

CMO · Aug 7, 2018

biecacka said:
Maybe the 10x flow is supposed to help with the chaeto ball rotation instead of using a secondary pump to help with the flow.
I have no clue, I just threw that out there.

Corey

In my my research on Triton the 10x flow recommendation is to ensure adequate mixing of dosed elements and to keep detritus suspended so corals can feed on it. IMO, there are other ways to accomplish this with less flow as mentioned.