Help me understand how a refugium outcompetes other algae

[Reefering1]

Threads like this are one of the reasons I added a scrubber to my new build. I just want to find out for myself how well / if they work . People that use them say they work, people that don't use them say they can't work
It's the only place in the tank growing green algae but it's also getting more light than the rest of the tank so that makes sense. I'll be turning lights on and moving coral over the next few days so it should be interesting.

To the OP's question I have had fuges in every tank I have owned but never to out compete other algae. To be honest I have never read that about a fuge but I don't get around much. I've always kept chaeto fuges so pods and worms and such have a place to reproduce. My new tank has a cryptic refugium that will not be any growing algae that need light but it will still be a good home for the little critters

Case in point... experience makes a difference too. Big difference between someone 10 years into reef keeping setting up another tank, running it in the dark(for how long? ) before transferring coral and turning on lights. Sounds much different than what everyone, on here with out of control algea, is doing setting up their tanks.. so when your tank is beautiful and thriving, would you say it's because of the ATS?

 

[exnisstech]

Case in point... experience makes a difference too. Big difference between someone 10 years into reef keeping setting up another tank, running it in the dark(for how long? ) before transferring coral and turning on lights. Sounds much different than what everyone, on here with out of control algea, is doing setting up their tanks.. so when your tank is beautiful and thriving, would you say it's because of the ATS?

If it becomes beautiful and thriving I'll never say it's because of the ats, too many people will argue lol. Seriously tho the scrubber is a tool that is growing algae in the sump. Would the tank be successful without it? Maybe but I'm not going back and redo it without to find that answer. But I'm yet to succeed with this tank. That will be a few years. I don't have what it takes to get a beautiful thriving tank in 6 months or a year even. If I succeed I'll give credit to the ats along with the old rock in the cryptic fuge, some 8 year old live rock in the display in addition to all the dry rock, running no lights and adding bacteria daily for over a month, 9 tangs and a few turbo snails larger than golf balls will all play a part. No skimmer but not running a skimmer is nothing new for me.
IMO too many people, especially newer and maybe younger folks are just too impatient and think there is some kind of bottled majic that creates a thriving tank. For me it's hard work, trial and error, way more failures than I care to think about but the most important trait a reef keeper should have to be succesful is patience.
Old guy rambling over.

 

[Reefering1]

If it becomes beautiful and thriving I'll never say it's because of the ats, too many people will argue lol. Seriously tho the scrubber is a tool that is growing algae in the sump. Would the tank be successful without it? Maybe but I'm not going back and redo it without to find that answer. But I'm yet to succeed with this tank. That will be a few years. I don't have what it takes to get a beautiful thriving tank in 6 months or a year even. If I succeed I'll give credit to the ats along with the old rock in the cryptic fuge, some 8 year old live rock in the display in addition to all the dry rock, running no lights and adding bacteria daily for over a month, 9 tangs and a few turbo snails larger than golf balls will all play a part. No skimmer but not running a skimmer is nothing new for me.
IMO too many people, especially newer and maybe younger folks are just too impatient and think there is some kind of bottled majic that creates a thriving tank. For me it's hard work, trial and error, way more failures than I care to think about but the most important trait a reef keeper should have to be succesful is patience.
Old guy rambling over.

Well said. Seems like you're off to a great start. I would be surprised if you have significant issues. Would be interesting to see the difference in stages the dry rocks go through compared to the established rock. How long have you been running the tank in the dark? I believe this to be the most important commonly skipped step when using dry rock

 

[FishTruck]

To OP... I will add one more anecdote that algae scrubbers and algae in refugium's can be a great nutrient export mechanism - but they don't totally stop algae from growing in other parts of the system - IME.

 

[exnisstech]

How long have you been running the tank in the dark? I believe this to be the most important commonly skipped step when using dry rock

I filled it 3/12 and have only been using a dim freshwater light to watch the fish in the evening . I don't want to clutter this thread anymore than I have already but I have been doing a decent job of keeping my build thread updated with pics along with some ramblings if you'd like to take look.
Do you have any suggestions on how long I should run with the lights off? This method I'm using is new to me so I'm pretty much winging it. The tank I'm removing it still up and running so I don't have to rush anything.

 

[fish farmer]

Threads like this are one of the reasons I added a scrubber to my new build. I just want to find out for myself how well / if they work . People that use them say they work, people that don't use them say they can't work
It's the only place in the tank growing green algae but it's also getting more light than the rest of the tank so that makes sense. I'll be turning lights on and moving coral over the next few days so it should be interesting.

To the OP's question I have had fuges in every tank I have owned but never to out compete other algae. To be honest I have never read that about a fuge but I don't get around much. I've always kept chaeto fuges so pods and worms and such have a place to reproduce. My new tank has a cryptic refugium that will not be any growing algae that need light but it will still be a good home for the little critters

Wait... you're using ramen noodles and pesto to control algae?

I thought you were supposed to use Cheetos, lol.

 

[exnisstech]

Wait... you're using ramen noodles and pesto to control algae?

I thought you were supposed to use Cheetos, lol.

Trust me I had the same thought when I opened it. I thought "I paid how much for this with knitting yarn?" But it's growing algae which it's meant for.
I actually think it may be easier to clean than the mesh that is used in most

 

[VintageReefer]

Trust me I had the same thought when I opened it. I thought "I paid how much for this with knitting yarn?" But it's growing algae which it's meant for.
I actually think it may be easier to clean than the mesh that is used in most

The strings are surface area for algae to grow on and it is easier to harvest than mesh. It doesn’t clog and doesn’t need to be scraped. Algae can grow on all sides of the string. It’s simple but it’s functional and has a purpose.

I think the bulk of the money on the surf is r/d and the sealed lid enclosure that is hand built at sm shop

 

[exnisstech]

I think the bulk of the money on the surf is r/d and the sealed lid enclosure that is hand built at sm shop

When I was working I earned more money for what I knew vs what I did physically so I'm good with the surf and it's construction. Function over form.

 

[rtparty]

So, you run an ATS, but you credit the herbivores for people not having large algae problems?
Why run the ATS then?

Overall water quality. I run the ATS to keep nitrate and phosphate down best I can. This is for the corals and overall health of the tank. Not to keep algae at bay somewhere else.

Again, it’s a tool. If I remove it, I won’t get a ton of algae in the display. My tang gang, pod population, and snails keep it in check

 

[darrick001]

The ats and refugium are tools. They have the ability to tranform your system if set up and utilized correctly. It's difficult to starve algae without starving your coral but it can be done. I have done it. And have repeated it. 7-8 years ago I removed my skimner and added a 210 refugium to a 700 gallon system. For the first month everything was perfect then within a couple months the algae In My refugium quit growing and my display was being overrun with gha. This continued until I was ready to give up and go back to a traditional system. I was also running the triton system. When an icp test that was sent in the results showed all the minerals the chaeto needed to grow were depleted. After correcting them the algae In My refugium started growing so fast I was removing large amounts every week or 2. Within 6 months the gha was gone and the refugium was still growing. The coral was also growing. That is when I really noticed the pod population had exploded. 50 ml of phytoplankton was being added daily. There was 1 small yellow tang, 1 algae blenny, 20-30 blue leg Crabs , and 30- 40 snails that would consume algae in a 500 gallon display. Phosphate and nitrate were undetectable and are still that way today. My coral are very colorful and grow well. A 4 inch chalice is now 14x20, 2 single heads of torch have grown so many heads they were split Into 7 colonies. More than 70 heads have been sold. I still have over 50 heads. Some types of Mushrooms have not grown much. Others have went from 1 or 2 to over 20. My rockflower anemones spawn every 3 months. 1 bta has split so many times I sold 17 and still have 11. Even with undetectable levels I think the growth and color says undetectable is OK. If your not using a skimmer , and the pod population is so high you can see them swimming when the pumps are off. Undetectable is ok under the right circumstances . A skimmer is a great tool in most systems but not if your trying to grow pods to ocean levels. By test kit my system is starving but in reality my coral have live food 24 hours a day. The best part is the food cleans my tank for free. No skimmer noise or mess, no filters to clean, no water changes, just grab a handful and Chuck it in a zip lock bag. It stinks if you don't seal it up and that would not make my wife happy lol. I know it seems like the algae In the display should not have died but it did. A couple years later I went on vacation for a month 3 days after I left my pump power supply died so I had my brother put a small 600 gph pump on until I came home. At the same time I had forgotten to change my di resin. So when I came back the display had a significant amount of algae. And again after everything was corrected the algae died in the display. I can't completely explain why this happens. My thinking is that because of the higher flow rate and lighting the algae in the refugium is able to utilize nutrients at a lower saturation. This is just speculation but if the algae needs a certain amount of nutrients to sustain itself and under lower flow and lighting it's unable to pull enough out to sustain itself. That could explain why the algae In the refugium is thriving and dies in the display. To make it really simple if someone(flow) puts 1 pea( nutrients) an hour on your plate you will eventualy starve, but if you turn up the flow and they now put 50 peas an hour on your plate you will have plenty of food to survive.

 

[killerkukoo]

A turf scrubber will severely limit the growth of display algae. A refugium could do the same but most fuges are undersized to handle this task alone.

Turf algae grows faster than other types and absorbs 5-10x the amount of phosphates compared to an equal amount of cheato.

Scrubbers consume excess from the water, limiting the amount leftover for other algae to use. My scrubber is a 4x2x2 box with 1000 par of red 660nm led lighting, less than an inch from the algae, in the spectrum that grows algae best. It’s an ideal environment for algae, and it grows much easier than the display

would it be possible to build one dyi?

 

[VintageReefer]

would it be possible to build one dyi?

Or course. But there are good designs out there and poor ones. Ones that can be harvested in seconds. And others that require disassembly and take several minutes. A well built scrubber that’s easy to use is the goal. I have zero experience with diy scrubbers. But I have read about, and talked to, lots of people who have built successful ones, and failed ones that didn’t work, along with people who built ones that work but they didn’t like because the weekly emptying became too much of a hassle.

 

[Formulator]

Ok, there’s a big piece missing from this discussion: algae eaters. In the display, you have a bunch of critters eating algae. In the refugium these algae eaters are absent. Therefore the algae in the display is being eaten while also competing for nutrients with the refugium, which typically runs in the reverse daylight cycle. It’s the algae eaters that tip the scale.

THIS. In the Oxford dictionary, Refuge: “A condition of being safe or sheltered from pursuit, danger, or trouble.”

Its a safe place away from predators to grow your algae which should keep NO3 and PO4 low enough to keep algae in the display at a level that is manageable by your algae eaters.