Help me understand low phosphates regarding Cyano Bacteria

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Oh and have you seen if sulfate ever becomes elevated in tanks with higher nitrates that don't perform water changes? That would help the hypothesis I would think a good deal.

How would that happen?

Sulfate is huge to begin with. Where would the sulfur come from to move that needle?

 

[RobB'z Reef]

Reef forums were a thing even in the 1990's. I was a moderator on Compuserve Fishnet.

Wish I had known about that back then haha

 

[Lasse]

I think that he referer to the normal H2S formation and that this can leave the water as gas. hence exporting S.

In theory - if the H2S production is hindered - as I suggest - no S will be exported as gas and the S should accumulate in the tank compared with a system without suppression of H2S forming. That was the way I got his statement at least. But in reality - I think it is very little H2S that will be released to the air - most of it will be directly oxidized in the water

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Tankkeepers]

So somthing that I would like to know any idea which amino acids were used\trigger an outbreak the reason I ask this is things need a certain type of amino acid / combination to grow / live and if all 20 were not added in equal ratios how could one narrow down exactly what was happening

 

[Lasse]

Because they can serve as N sources for the production of other needed amino acids and proteins. The actual amino acid will not be used for protein synthesis but the N in it will . It is like adding NH3/NH4 to plants and algaes.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[flampton]

How would that happen?

Sulfate is huge to begin with. Where would the sulfur come from to move that needle?

There is sulfur coming in with the food, and if you don't export it the sulfate level should eventually start to rise. However haven't looked at level of sulfur in aquarium foods. I know algae can have a bit, not sure of mysids or any of the other carnivore preps. If the levels are small, you're right it would take a very long time to observe a significant change.

 

[Tankkeepers]

As to sulfur it is also produced in areas with little to no o2 but access to nitrogen deep in rocks deep sand beds etc as its expelled as a byproduct of the bacteria breaking down nitrates that is one way it can be introduced in a tank without another form of nitrogen removal

 

[Tankkeepers]

And as to amino acids yes this is true but what I'm getting at is if your just using fish food flakes and not a direct source for your fertilizer using the base ingredents then there is no true way to test whats happening as each pinch of flake will contain a slightly diffrent level of each ingreadent which in turn screws with the end results sry cant spell

 

[Tankkeepers]

I'm no expert but I have a pretty good understanding

 

[Tankkeepers]

Also I would love to see exactly what happening to see if there is a way to avoid it in the first place or if introducing a certain amino acid will in turn disrupt the prosses as it could be a lack of somthing not alowing the formation or to much of somthing else causing a rapid growth and in turn the cells exploding similar to what happends when you use peroxide to kill things the extra oxygen molicue causes the cell to explode

 

[Lasse]

As to sulfur it is also produced in areas with little to no o2 but access to nitrogen deep in rocks deep sand beds etc as its expelled as a byproduct of the bacteria breaking down nitrates that is one way it can be introduced in a tank without another form of nitrogen removal

Sulphur is not produced in any tank. You can´t produce an element from any other compound not containing that element if you not have found the philosophers Stone. However H2S will be produced from compounds containing sulphur in the absence of nitrate

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Tankkeepers]

Sorry you are incorrect

In anaerobic respiration, a molecule other than oxygen is used as the terminal electron acceptor in the electron transport chain

Both inorganic and organic compounds may be used as electron acceptors in anaerobic respiration. Inorganic compounds include sulfate (SO42-), nitrate (NO3–), and ferric iron (Fe3+). Organic compounds include DMSO.

The bacateria in a deep sand bed use no3 and exhale so4

 

[Tankkeepers]

And over time this builds up in the dsb creating sulphur zone that if disturbed will wipe a tank out and if not changed out compleatly every few years will start to leach sulphur into the tank been there done that

 

[Tankkeepers]

Just like we breath in 02 and exhale co2

 

[Tankkeepers]

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/boundless-microbiology/chapter/anaerobic-respiration/ for reference

 

[Reef and Dive]

This could help enrich your discussion:

Redfield Ratio Revisited – What are we doing wrong?

Paulo Mallard Scaldaferri, João Carlos Basso, Marcos Augusto Bizeto, Miguel Mies, Roberto Denadai, Junio Melo Introduction Possible applications of the Redfield ratio in the management of the marine aquarium have been discussed over the year. Many have considered that knowledge very helpful...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Tankkeepers]

Sorry not trying to be rude but I know for a fact this happens as I personally have had it happen as part of my learning curve when I setup a 0 food input 0 water change I only added micro and macro nutrients to the water as an increase in mass from the critters I kept needed energy from somewhere it produced its own food and ran tjrew the entire nitrogen and sulphur cycles ending in suphric gas that has to be release carefully every few months it ran for 8 years before my kid killed the system by dumping chili powder in it

 

[Tankkeepers]

Very good read right there

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

There is sulfur coming in with the food, and if you don't export it the sulfate level should eventually start to rise. However haven't looked at level of sulfur in aquarium foods. I know algae can have a bit, not sure of mysids or any of the other carnivore preps. If the levels are small, you're right it would take a very long time to observe a significant change.

Levels of sulfate vary widely between salt mixes and are far too small in foods to impact the levels, even ignoring that much of it ends up in organism tissues anyway.

 

[Sleeping Giant]

Me, trying to understand this information I know is good to know.