Help me understand low phosphates regarding Cyano Bacteria

[92Miata]

Ignore this..

 

[Sallstrom]

@Dan_P
You can add to the theory “phosphorus trigger” about 50 reports from me and my colleagues on that 1-5ppm nitrate is enough. And preferably not all in one day, but a small daily dose to raise say 1-2 ppm a week will do. Usually you don’t have to go up more than that. And we do not do other changes than adding nitrate.

I know you compared my observations with alien sightings in the other thread, but we’ve been able to repeat this “treatment“ in the same tank over and over for ten years. And in many more tanks the last five years. So even if the tanks were not setup as experiments, at least we’ve been able to repeat the treatment and gotten the same results many many times.
So after seeing it so many times, I’m pretty convinced that something happens(Cyanobacteria goes away). What exactly happy I leave to someone else to figure out. I don’t have that knowledge.

 

[Dan_P]

@Dan_P
You can add to the theory “phosphorus trigger” about 50 reports from me and my colleagues on that 1-5ppm nitrate is enough. And preferably not all in one day, but a small daily dose to raise say 1-2 ppm a week will do. Usually you don’t have to go up more than that. And we do not do other changes than adding nitrate.

I know you compared my observations with alien sightings in the other thread, but we’ve been able to repeat this “treatment“ in the same tank over and over for ten years. And in many more tanks the last five years. So even if the tanks were not setup as experiments, at least we’ve been able to repeat the treatment and gotten the same results many many times.
So after seeing it so many times, I’m pretty convinced that something happens(Cyanobacteria goes away). What exactly happy I leave to someone else to figure out. I don’t have that knowledge.

Just out of curiosity, why do you keep seeing cyanobacteria year after year in the same aquarium if you have such an effective control measure?

 

[Dan_P]

To the phosphate theory add organic matter in the substrate. If it is there - they will use it when the mats have start to form

There is reports from natural water that says 2 ppm nitrate will hinder hydrogen sulphide production

You state that organic matter will be the reason for mat forming. I have never clean my sand or anything during 4 years - lot of organics in different places - no cyano. I do not say that organic matter not cause cyano mats - if I have it - it is small patches there coral tissue just have died but I never get these huge outbreaks

Further on - you said before that you have not seen any written about this - here is some ideas

You can say - but it has not been done in my aquarium but this indicate that my thought not is very rare

From this





When mats is formed N is no problem even if you do not have any results from aquarium - probably because no one have investegate that

Do a Google search with this - cyanobacteria mats nitrogen fixation and you can read your way to christmas evening

Sincerely Lasse

You can find just about anything on the internet to support ones theory.

Looking forwards to your future posts!

I will say Merry Christmas now as I will be busy using Google to find articles on cyanobacteria.

Dan

 

[flampton]

If...and that's a big if the increase in nitrate causes the mat to disperse, then we know there is another process going on. How do we know? Well cyanobacteria and nitrogen driven eutrophication. So I know it is not a direct action by the nitrate but there could exist many many other possibilities.

Increase in bacteriovores is one way we might see this mat decomp do to...
Increase in nitrate utilizing heterotrophic bacterial population which may also suppress of phosphate levels.

Those are just two, I'm sure you could find a ton more hypotheticals. What I know you won't find is nitrate acting as the antagonist. It doesn't even merit scientific scrutiny anymore. I mean this is settled science. An autotroph with accessible nitrate is not going to supress it's population, that is bonkers.

 

[Lasse]

And why does we not get benthic cyano blooms in every aquarium - there is few without any measurable nitrate? And surprisingly often we find the cyano blooms in aquariums with "nitrate starvation"

And there have been many "settled science" in the history of mankind.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[flampton]

So your telling me a life forms niche has improved nutritionally and for some reason it is going to not only stop growing but choose to destroy it's own mat and have the majority of that colony just die off? For such an outlandish hypothesis you will need extremely strong direct evidence ruling out not only the two hypothesis I just mentioned but the many other variables/hypotheses that will come up within an aquarium setting.

You need to become more open to what others are saying. I didn't say the nitrate dosing for cyanos was impossible, I just challenged your hypothesis on why. Instead of realizing that your hypothesis is weak and adjusting it you take it almost as a challenge. Why is that?

 

[Lasse]

You need to become more open to what others are saying

Its time for another Lasse´s saying - catch the thief shouted the thief. You need to be more open for many years of experiences with these problems and many, many repeated treatments in many aquariums instead for climbing up on high horses and flag with the banner of science.

There is observations done of me and @Sallstrom according to manny aquariums and occasions that when a cyanobacteria bloom (forming of mats) had start when actual aquarium running low in dissolved inorganic nutrients in the water column - adding NO3 will (and in some occasions PO4 too) make the mats slowly disappear and as long as the NO3 levels is stable around 2-3 ppm - no more mat forming

I have mention two things in this discussion as an explanation for the observed course of events

1. low nutrients and mostly very low measured NO3 in the water column will trig the always present benthic cyanobacteria to form mats that´s mostly consists of hydrocarbons from the photosynthesis. In this way - the benthic cyanobacteria create an microenvironment that give them access to nutrients that other organisms cant access.
2. Rising the nutrients (mostly the NO3) in the water column will slowly get the mats to disappear (not the cyanobacteria but the mats). In other threads I have suggest that disturbing the mats will speed up the process. according to why NO3 is effective - I have highlight its ability to block the production of hydrogen sulphide - H2S is necessary in anaerobic environment for the release of metal bounded phosphate. Dan_P´s finding that he in vitro could not get cyanobacteria mats without adding amino acids rise the discussion of competition again because if it is that way that these mat forming cyanobacteria can´t use nitrate as an nitrogen source you can be able to make the ecosystem to be more "nitrate" depending - you can favour other organisms

This can be true or can´t be true but non of your arguments have make me changed my mind. However - these observed course of events has been so many direct seen by me and @Sallstrom - not to mention all other swedish aquarist that have seen the same. I would say that we have a strong event based evidence for this cause effect mechanism

Sincerely Lasse

 

[flampton]

High horse... So you believe this a moral story? Science has no intrinsic morality. Science doesn't care about your beliefs or your feelings.

It's clear the hypothesis has become your ego

I've seen a few scientists throw away their careers to this...

 

[Lasse]

It is important to note that the mats is not a solid biomass - it is individual cyanobacteria connected together of a slime of mostly carbohydrates - when the mats disappear - it does not mean that the individual cyanobacteria will die or disappear - they will still be there

Sincerely Lasse

 

[flampton]

Who's consuming the mucilage?

 

[Lasse]

Science doesn't care about your beliefs or your feelings.

Exactly

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

Who's consuming the mucilage?

What you think if it is mostly carbohydrates?
Sincerely Lasse

 

[flampton]

Again for the people interested in cyanos please check this paper

This type of ecology is why dry rock starts are problematic

So @Lasse this paper explains who I think is the most likely explanation for consuming the carbs in a healthy aquarium. Oh and then the ciliates can consume the cyano

Rotifers weaken the efficiency of the cyanobacterium defence against ciliate grazers - PubMed

Cyanobacteria can protect themselves through limited dispersion and by increasing the compactness of the mucilage-covered cyanobacterial mat as well as by producing sheaths covering their trichomes. These features have been used in research to measure their degree of inducible defence. The...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Lasse]

Do you know the surviving rate of rotifers in an aquarium stocked with fish of different size and 100 of thousands hungry polyps? And sponges and other filtrating organisms?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[flampton]

Well I should note first that the species of rotifers in this paper are just an example of biocontrol. I do not know the species within your aquarium. I don't know your population of other microzooplankton that will consume the mucilage and the microzooplankton that will consume the cyanos itself. In fact if you started with dry rock and never bothered to infuse from the ocean you likely have none of these important populations.

So I recommend you check the threads on the dry rock start and the frustration with cyanos (and dinoflagellates.) What's the most likely reason? That you don't have enough nitrate? Or is it because you don't have the proper competition and predators? You choose your fate in this hobby, and when people push extraordinary claims they need extraordinary evidence.

So the question I pose is what is your copepod population like in your aquarium? If it is terrible then yes your microzooplankton population is suffering. So you'll much more likely to get bad cyano and of course dinos. My absolute best advice is to always consider the health of your pico and microzooplankton. They're the true champions of your little piece of the ocean.

Oh and I'm going to head out of this thread but definitely interesting discussion!! I just don't think I have anything else to add.

Oh wait one more thing...

My suggestion as always it's that if you have come up with a hypothesis try your absolute best to prove its false. This is because as a human you're wired for confirmation bias. It's an extremely strong trait in humans and will absolutely wreck your ability to discover something that is closer to the truth.

Peace everyone

 

[Sallstrom]

Just out of curiosity, why do you keep seeing cyanobacteria year after year in the same aquarium if you have such an effective control measure?

Yes, I admit that sounds crazy when you put it that way

I use the first sight of Cyanobacteria as a sign that I have to raise the NO3 dosing(or sometimes PO4). So in most cases it wasn't mats covering all substrate, but a first sign of Cyanobacteria starting to establish mats. Of course we do meassure nitrate as well, but sometimes tanks run just fine in low meassurable nitrate and without Cyanobacteria. So therefor I like to wait until either the corals show signs of low nutrients or Cyanobacteria starts growing until I start or raise the dose of NO3.

Another reason is that I like to repeat thing and see if they work again to practice my skills. Or just to show off to @Lasse and be able to say "this cyano will be gone in two weeks" and be able to live up to that statement

 

[Lasse]

Just out of curiosity, why do you keep seeing cyanobacteria year after year in the same aquarium if you have such an effective control measure?

Cyanobacteria will always be present in your aquarium, always - it is the forming of mats that´s problematic.

So I recommend you check the threads on the dry rock start and the frustration with cyanos (and dinoflagellates.)

You ask me for alternative suggestion - here is one based on my experiences of many starts of both fresh and saltwater aquarium. From 20 L to 1 400 000 L. It is inline with my other experiences

If you start with a total sterile aquarium - there will be no nutrients in the start. I have started aquariums with dry rocks, dry sand and new equipment without any signs of forming of cyano mats. But I always start with a fish and very sparsely feeding regime. I also - in that case with all brand new - add around 2 ppm nitrate to the water. Because I start with fish and and CUC during the first days - normally no need of PO4 addition. If you start your aquarium in a fishless way - you have a to add PO4 - IMO. I neither found of the method with "chock addition" of NH3/NH4 - if a fishless cycle is chosen - it is enough with addition of around 0.01 ppm NH3/NH4 a day and slowly rise it - IMO.

Another question with "sterile" starts - where does the benthic cyanobacteria comes from if you do not introduce any "wet or living rocks". They are always present but forms mat under specific circumstances. What I mean - you will have in the benthic cyanobacteria from whatever regardless of what you use in the start.

You ask me to prove my theories wrong - methods that have been tested for many years and slowly a hypothesis has grown - and you present an article that's not even is printed yet as prove for your standpoint - the online version comes as a teaser 18/9 this year (22 days ago).

This is - of cause strongly IMO -

This is because as a human you're wired for confirmation bias. It's an extremely strong trait in humans and will absolutely wreck your ability to discover something that is closer to the truth

Note - I am probably one of the person on R2R with the strongest voice for advocating the greatest possible diversity within all trophic levels found in an aquarium. I do not say that predation not is important - IMO it is the most important factor according to "normal" microalgae growth. The dream scenario is to find a predator on the mats - but it is not easy because many of them have toxic substances incorporated. Because of -IMO - the mats is the key for benthic cyanobacterial blooms - disturbing them is on good thing to do. A rather huge amount of CUC - as diverse as possible - can be one factor for lack of mats. Also note that I not have say that all blooms is caused by low nutrients - there is some examples - even in my own experiences there the trigger clearly not have been lack of nitrogen. I have try to write in that way that if low nutrient concentration (and especially lack of nitrate) precedes the outbreak of the cyano bloom - when rising the nutrients will help. In this case - it is also important to stress that all known (till now) hobby tests is sensitive for nitrite - it means that if nitrite levels is around 0.05 ppm - the hobby tests nitrate will automatically show between 2.5 and 5 (depending on brand) ppm nitrate already from the beginning.

But I have seen cyano blooms coming up in nitrate levels over 5 and lower nitrite levels than 0.05 ppm. Very seldom - but they are there. My old aquarium (2011 - 2016) never ever shown any benthic cyanobacteria mats and with nutrients level that would make @Thales jealous - crashed and all my CUC die. Most of my fish too - however - never have had better looking corals - not before or not after. Short after the CUC disappear - there was cyanobacteria mats all over - all dead fish was taken up. So odd events exist even here - but it does not change my overall impression of the problem. Life - and especially ecology is not black and white - it is more 4K

Another fact is that there is a lot of species and genera among the the benthic mat forming cyanobacteria. The different outbreaks can maybe be explained with species or genera factors. @twilliard succeeded to show that both "normal" cyanobacteria from the genus Oscillatoria and cyanobacteria from the genus Spirulina could produce red mats in a saltwater aquarium. Just do a search here on Cyanobacteria and author Twiliard - and you will have reading for at least three christmas eves

Sincerely Lasse

 

[SMSREEF]

What's the most likely reason? That you don't have enough nitrate? Or is it because you don't have the proper competition and predators?

My take is that it is both. In new tanks started with dead rock, we do not have the diverse biome needed to keep problematic organisms under control. Often nutrients are also low which lead to conditions favoring certain cyano/Dino/etc to grow.

However, even in some established tanks With diverse biome, low nutrient conditions can lead to a decrease in competitor numbers, and what we are left with, is an environment that cyano, Dino’s, chrysophyte are able to succeed and spread.

if we only increase nutrients in the new tank, it is very hard to get a problem Like Dino or chrysophyte under control because it has become the apex species in the tank. I had the best luck with reducing the problem in a new tank by manual removal, increasing nutrients and adding live rock and real live sand (not the bagged crap from the store, I don’t consider that live and I don’t know how they can call it that). I also believe that nutrients are 100% needed so competitors can multiply.

In a more established tank, I think nutrient increase may be enough because the diverse biome already exists. However, even in this case you may need to do something to actively reduce the population of the problem. I had a 3 year old tank with live rock and coral and increasing nutrients and the diverse biome did not rid the problem. Even dosing bottled bacteria (ZEObac,MB7, waste away, refresh) did not work. Blackout, nope. I had to use UV and Dino’s were gone in 2 days. With increased nutrients (which I assume fed competitors and helped them multiply) the Dino’s never came back.

There are so many variables in our tanks and it just doesn’t translate to test tube/petri dish experiments well. That’s why many of us place such improtance on the anecdotal evidence from other reefers with years and decades of experience. We also rely on the accumulated anecdotal evidence of many other new reefers over time.

The problem is that there is often many different ways to be successful, and no 2 tanks will ever be exactly the same. Are we making the correct assumptions? Maybe, but maybe not.

 

[Dan_P]

Yes, I admit that sounds crazy when you put it that way

I use the first sight of Cyanobacteria as a sign that I have to raise the NO3 dosing(or sometimes PO4). So in most cases it wasn't mats covering all substrate, but a first sign of Cyanobacteria starting to establish mats. Of course we do meassure nitrate as well, but sometimes tanks run just fine in low meassurable nitrate and without Cyanobacteria. So therefor I like to wait until either the corals show signs of low nutrients or Cyanobacteria starts growing until I start or raise the dose of NO3.

Another reason is that I like to repeat thing and see if they work again to practice my skills. Or just to show off to @Lasse and be able to say "this cyano will be gone in two weeks" and be able to live up to that statement

This is a new perspective on an old topic for me: an aquarium having a chronic cyanobacteria infection and recurring mat formation. I think @taricha has this situation because he seems to be able to conjure up a luxurious red cyanobacteria mat quite readily.

My fish only system supports many species of cyanobacteria but mat formation is not an issue. I find a scattering of cyanobacteria on most surface samples, the aragonite sand seems to have the largest diversity. About 6 months ago a weak but persistent mat formed, about 10 cm by 10 cm, but was gradually replaced by a persistent diatom mat at the same location which slowly spread to several other locations. So my system also has a chronic cyanobacteria infection but the cyanobacteria microbiome is likely different from your system. That makes me wonder if @AquaBiomics would be interested in a collaborative survey of aquaria cyanobacteria microbiomes, looking for data to support the notion that of the many factors behind mat formation is the cyanobacteria microbiome or maybe the heterotrophic microbiome.

Thanks for your thought provoking reply!