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TokenReefer

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I'm trying to wrap my head around something I read here often; certain corals do not like low nitrates/phosphates. Now I understand that these are required nutrients for growth but will the absence of detectable levels on test kits harm the corals? Surely these are present every time a fish poops for instance but then consumed by x,y,z and therefore undetectable, but why would undectable levels actually harm the coral? I suppose if you have too much algae that could consume all the nutrients first but in the absence of excessive algae? Is this just in the context of wanting faster growth? What am I missing?
 
Let's say feeding is regular daily so the supply of each is steady; the availability is the same and is consumed. Or take the fish poop out the equation and those nutrients are dosed. If the coral consumes what's available, why does there have to detectable levels for them to live?
 
Depends on the coral, for instance in my tank no amount of feeding or dosing amino acids will register nitrates. Phosphates are not an issue. Between algae, certain corals, sponges, and everything else, all that organic matter is consumed/processed at some level before it becomes residual nitrates.

The problem is some corals just don’t compete well for those organics and get left out. Specifically for me it is zoanthids, unless I dose nitrate, they do very poorly (aka die). They are kind of an indicator coral in my tank, and in general I see better health in all corals when I dose nitrates, but for some they literally die without it.
 
Depends on the coral, for instance in my tank no amount of feeding or dosing amino acids will register nitrates. Phosphates are not an issue. Between algae, certain corals, sponges, and everything else. all organic matter is consumed/processed at some level before it becomes residual nitrates.

The problem is some corals just don’t compete well for those organics and get left out. Specifically for me it is zoanthids, unless I dose nitrate, they do very poorly (aka die). They are kind of an indicator coral in my tank, But in general I see better health in all corals when I dose nitrates, but for some they literally die without it,
An additional variable, coral tendencies.
 
Depends on the coral, for instance in my tank no amount of feeding or dosing amino acids will register nitrates. Phosphates are not an issue. Between algae, certain corals, sponges, and everything else. all organic matter is processed directly before it becomes residual nitrates.

The problem is some corals just don’t compete well for those organics and get left out. Specifically for me it is zoanthids, unless I dose nitrate, they do very poorly (aka die). They are kind of an indicator coral in my tank, But in general I see better health in all corals when I dose nitrates, but for some they literally die without it,
Ahh this makes a lot of sense. So it's kind of like feeding my fish and getting enough food in there so my goby (who doesn't like to move much) can get some too. And in a mixed reef tank you're targeting all different types of corals. Ok. That I can understand
 
Think about it this way....if you have undetectable amount of nitrate or phosphate, how do you know if you have just the perfect amount or not enough??? You don't. So it's better to have a small detectable amount.
 
Ahh this makes a lot of sense. So it's kind of like feeding my fish and getting enough food in there so my goby (who doesn't like to move much) can get some too. And in a mixed reef tank you're targeting all different types of corals. Ok. That I can understand
Yeah, I tried for a long time to elevate feeding, dose massive amounts of aminos acids, turn off my skimmer, nothing would register nitrates. Zoanthids just slowly melting away, and some other corals just not a colorful as I would like.

Start dosing calcium nitrate and my zoanthids took off. Found out my tank doesn’t even consume residual nitrates that strongly (like 1-2ppm per day), but it can handle massive amounts of waste/food/organics. It was interesting to watch and I had the same initial thoughts as you.
 
Let's say feeding is regular daily so the supply of each is steady; the availability is the same and is consumed. Or take the fish poop out the equation and those nutrients are dosed. If the coral consumes what's available, why does there have to detectable levels for them to live?
Because they would constantly be limited, which has an impact on growth and overall health, photosynthesis can’t occur with out nutrients, which means the coral can’t feed its self. Nutrient levels in the ocean are much lower than we keep them, but there is a constant, near endless supply. In a closed system, running your nutrients that low would lead to constant bottoming out. Corals need to have nutrients available when they need them. Plus you also run the risk of getting dinoflagellates by having consistently undetectable nutrients.
 
Because they would constantly be limited, which has an impact on growth and overall health, photosynthesis can’t occur with out nutrients,
ok, I did not realize photosynthesis would occur in the absence of these nutrients....

Mentioning dinos leads to another question. Why does bottoming out nutrients mean dinos? I get the concept in a NEW system where everything is fighting to establish a foothold, but in an established tank where corals rule the nutrient food chain, why would it lead to dinos if nutrients bottom out? Any available nutrients would be sucked up by the corals, leaving what for dinos? Dinos need nitrogen and phosphorus (like all life far as I know) to live and then we're told (in the midst of an dino outbreak) to dose nutrients? It just doesn't add up to me.
 
As pointed out above nutrients in reefs ssytems is a very complicated issue. I've always thought there's stuff we can't test for and chasing research done on reefs has helped quantify just how little we can actually test for as far as basic nutrients: Total carbon which includes Particulate, Dissolved Organic and Dissolved Inorganic (POC, DOC and DIC). Total Nitrogen which includes Particulate, Dissolved Organic and Dissolved Inorganic (PON, DON and DIN). Total Phosphorus which includes Particulate, Dissolved Organic and Dissolved Inorganic (POP, DOP and DIP). It's only the inorganic forms we can easily test for.

Long ago the assumption was made based only on testing for DIN and DIP that reefs systems are "nutrient deserts" and the idea we need to keep nutrients low became dogma. Unfortunately this was a very simplistic view and is best said by Charles Delbeek "Our crystal-clear aquaria do not come close to the nutrient loads that swirl around natural reefs. And so when we create low-nutrient water conditions, we still have to deal with the rest of a much more complex puzzle. Much like those who run their aquarium water temperature close to the thermal maximums of corals walk a narrow tight rope, I can't help but think that low-nutrient aquariums may be headed down a similar path." Charles Delbeck, Coral Nov/Dec 2010, pg 127

Over a decade ago research done by various researchers showing how complex and critical the nutrient web is on reef ssystems started filtering down to the hobbyest forums and reefers. This research show that we are dealing with species specific responses to feeding and levels eihter too high or too low can be critical for corals to thrive and compete with algae.

In particular, a long term research project at Southhampton University in England with coral maintianed in a reef system with typical filtration methods and mainteneance found a threshold level of .03 mg/l for PO4 (DIP) to prevent a phosphorus deficiency in corals. It is true corals are utilizing POP, DOP and DIP and as pointed out above a system may have enough and the corals in the system may be happy utilizing stuff we can't test for but not having any testable level can lead to coral death when growth or a stress event depletes what's available. What few aqauarists seem to be aware of is corals store phospholipids. Maintianing corals in low nutrient environments may prevent them from having enough to deal with stress events or competition from other corals and organisms weakening their immune systems leading to disease and death.

I realize this is a huge data bomb but here's links you may find informative;

"Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title (Paper back is ~$20, Kindle is ~$10), both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC in reef ecosystems. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems

Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes

Microbial view of Coral Decline

Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont

BActeria and Sponges

Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)

Optical Feedback Loop in Colorful Coral Bleaching

Richard Ross What's up with phosphate"

Phosphate Deficiency:
Nutrient enrichment can increase the susceptibility of reef corals to bleaching:

Ultrastructural Biomarkers in Symbiotic Algae Reflect the Availability of Dissolved Inorganic Nutrients and Particulate Food to the Reef Coral Holobiont:

Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates

Effects of phosphate on growth and skeletal density in the scleractinian coral Acropora muricata: A controlled experimental approach

High phosphate uptake requirements of the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata

Phosphorus metabolism of reef organisms with algal symbionts


Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle

Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges
 
I realize this is a huge data bomb but here's links you may find informative;
well bombs away! Thank you @Timfish I really appreciate you taking the time to lay this information out for me (and the community). This is what makes R2R so great. Now I have a lot of homework to do! It shines a light on how much I don't know lol. I'm trying to fill in the rest of the puzzle, not just the edge and corner pieces... got those already ;) What a great help!
 
Does cyanobacteria perform nitrogen fixation?

The source of this fluorescence is phycoerythrin in unicellular, nonheterocystis, symbiotic cyanobacteria within the host cells of the coral. The cyanobacteria coexist with the symbiotic dinoflagellates (zooxanthellae) of the coral and express the nitrogen-fixing enzyme nitrogenase.


@Dana Riddle
Considering your Advanced Aquaria articles on coral nutrition, do you have any thoughts on nitrogen fixation by Cynobacteria?
 
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