Help please! Frag tank crashed and cannot be recovered

[charles7]

I glad to have made your morning.

Again, stop putting false words in my mouth. And the 2014 comments are also pretty misguided. I’ve never asked anyone to believe anything I say because of when I joined REEF2REEF. I can and will support anything I state with scientific discussion.

Argumentative? Definitely. Incorrect or confusing statements will NEVER be left alone in my forum. To paraphrase Churchill, we will never surrender.

If you truly believe I am the one who does not understand what tds is, perhaps you will want to peruse one of my articles titled

What is TDS? by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Also no i was stating that your account says 2014. When i first got into salt afte rkeeping other things. I always looked for experience rather than articles. Learning from mistakes rather than data is more crucial to me.

 

[MnFish1]

Even if i say im done, of course ill read the rebuttal. U got me laughing with tds doesnt affect corals and inverts. Instead of relying on someone else especially after meeting you, i did the digging and reading. For someone who has been on r2r for so long you have got to be the most misinformed and argumentative person lol do any simple search and there are entire forums dedicated to this topic, research articles, and your face saying “nO tHaT iSnT rIGhT i DoNt bEliEve IN iT” you made my morning for sure. Its like talking to a petco employee about anything related to saltwater or reptiles at this point. Its priceless.

I'm sorry I think you have a reading comprehension problem. TDS in Fresh water is TOTALLY different measurement-wise than TDS in a reef tank. As Randy explained.

TDS - TOTAL disolved solids in RODI should be 0. The optimal TDS for shrimp in freshwater is 100-200 or so. The TDS in seawater (as already explained) is 35,000.

A magnet dropped in freshwater that was decaying might double or triple the TDS - in reef water (in a display tank) - which would easily alert you to a potential problem. that type of change is not measurable in a reef display tank.

So - unfortunately - you're using a valid concept (i.e. the potential leaching of metals into a reef tank) but using totally inappropriate terminology (TDS) and recommendations for testing in a display tank are 'wrong'. The reason you're getting 'push back' is becasue 'you are wrong' IMHO. Now I have to ring up another client at my Petco job LOL.

PS - the appropriate test to do in a reef tank - in which you suspect metal poisoning - is first - try to find a source. Second - assume its there and try to treat with with carbon, poly filter, cuprisorb, ec - and simultaneously send an ICP.

 

[MnFish1]

How about I do this. For example nickel in magnets. If a few grams of nickel leaches off into a small tank like a 20 like me and him have. What happens then? Does it not actively raise tds. Why am i trying to explain anything. Now im getting heated over a band wagon

It raises TDS to a degree that is unmeasurable - which makes it a useless concept - unless you're talking about a freshwater tank

 

[Koh23]

Please forgive me for joining this discussion but...

It seems to me that we have paradox here.... Sort of.....

So, fish jumped out, thanx to quick reaction, he (or she) was back in water immediately.

Then, fish starts to breath heavy, and obvious reason is not a fact that fish just slammed on hard floor from height, and since we all know that floors are not very suitable place for fish, no, lets test water to see parameters, who probably dont have anything with fact that fish jumped out.

More, lets put some more stress to fish by moving her (or him) to another tank.

Then, lets notice some crabs that move slowly.... As we all know, crabs love to pull The Flash all the time, speeding trough tank 24/7.... So, lets remove them also. While we are here, lets make water change, ignoring fact that all tested parameters are good.

Jesus, if my crabs didnt move from one place in days, then i will check them, crab that is moving slowly is nothing that worries me. Crab that like to walk on my tank braces also falls into that - dont worry me.

Then, corals look bit stressed after wc.... Totaly normal. It can be salt, maybe you miss ph, temp was different, alk.... Or maybe nothing. Then, even if corals dont look happy, lets make two more 90% changes.....

I think u see where i'm going with this

Possible tank crash was consequence, not cause....

There is sooo many things one can do before it starts to panick and pull things out if tank, doing massive water changes....

And i apologize, but, didn's see that you do at least one of them....

But, good luck.

 

[CoralB]

freshwater omg !!! , I hope the op is still around .

 

[charles7]

I'm sorry I think you have a reading comprehension problem. TDS in Fresh water is TOTALLY different measurement-wise than TDS in a reef tank. As Randy explained.

TDS - TOTAL disolved solids in RODI should be 0. The optimal TDS for shrimp in freshwater is 100-200 or so. The TDS in seawater (as already explained) is 35,000.

A magnet dropped in freshwater that was decaying might double or triple the TDS - in reef water (in a display tank) - which would easily alert you to a potential problem. that type of change is not measurable in a reef display tank.

So - unfortunately - you're using a valid concept (i.e. the potential leaching of metals into a reef tank) but using totally inappropriate terminology (TDS) and recommendations for testing in a display tank are 'wrong'. The reason you're getting 'push back' is becasue 'you are wrong' IMHO. Now I have to ring up another client at my Petco job LOL.

PS - the appropriate test to do in a reef tank - in which you suspect metal poisoning - is first - try to find a source. Second - assume its there and try to treat with with carbon, poly filter, cuprisorb, ec - and simultaneously send an ICP.

Its a comparison not saying the tds is the same bud, i think you have the “read comprehension” problems or forgot to take speech or any english course in general to learn comparison is not an exact match. Its to explain that tds involving bad materials is the same for other concepts. Especially when i dont know what metal contributes to a decline

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Yes we are getting to something. So 2 months ago roughly i got a big breed box if you will, used it for pebbles and mushroom propagation. A couple weeks later my euphyllia is half receded like at night time, acans are showing skeleton and zoas are half closed most of the time. Looks like a crash coming. I check all my instruments and find yellow and orange sludge coming out of a fairly large magnet. The box weighed a good 6-7 pounds with rock and some pressure with me testing the strength by pushing on it so it was a sturdy magnet. Whether we have to get fancy with instruments, mark lines on glads for evaporation or not. Those metals whatever was leached raised tds a bit. Far more than what would have wiped my shrimp tanks out in a week or two.

Now regardless of testing tds, we know it wouldve increased. Whether visible from a test, im not sure. I only test freshwater because death comes first with shrimp and corals show signs before death. I factor in those metals into tds which i do not think im wrong. It can be tested which like you stated with evaporation, depending on how close nit you keep up with measurements on a simple ato or black marker, its still there. I didnt test and instead ran daily water changes, removed the magnets and within a week the euphyllia was fully opened and now the tissue recession at the bases are coming back. To skew some bias, i ordered some amminos to dip, iodine, brightwell restore. Those were used after the euphyllia started fully opening again.

I understand youve written articles and hell your name is at the top left. I am stating my experience and what ive learned from keeping caridina shrimp that i have to test tds daily for and had my ups and downs with crashes (tank wipes) from 1 gallon water changes and forgetting to remineralize to 150 tds. As for corals i get visual cues and dont have to test, although it wont hurt to do so.

Metal issues are real and a concern. detecting them by TDS in seawater is not ever a viable approach. Icp can detect them, and use of metal binders can be done with or without knowledge of elevated levels.

In RO/di, metals may or may not be detectable, but is never evidence that metals are there. Even CO2 from the air will raise tds more than a toxic level of copper.

 

[Dburr1014]

freshwater omg !!! , I hope the op is still around .

I think maybe the OP should start a new thread.

 

[charles7]

Metal issues are real and a concern. detecting them by TDS in seawater is not ever a viable approach. Icp can detect them, and use of metal binders can be done with or without knowledge of elevated levels.

In RO/di, metals may or may not be detectable, but is never evidence that metals are there. Even CO2 from the air will raise tds more than a toxic level of copper.

Thats where u got me at, i keep both fresh and salt. They arent the same but there are a few similarities id say. I have ZERO idea what metal caused my issues from the magnet. I do know that i didnt have to pay for an icp test and that those metals are in the tds. That it, simple, i didnt need to test it and really neither does he but since i don’t know what could be causing my past problems. Maybe possibly his problems although again it was an idea because he did water changes like i did except i knew the source and removed it. Im saying tds because it contains the metals that i cant name that almost crashed mine. Therefore i asked a question in my first response on this forum because i don’t know the exact thing, someone else might know or dig deeper.

 

[domenickj]

Metal issues are real and a concern. detecting them by TDS in seawater is not ever a viable approach. Icp can detect them, and use of metal binders can be done with or without knowledge of elevated levels.

In RO/di, metals may or may not be detectable, but is never evidence that metals are there. Even CO2 from the air will raise tds more than a toxic level of copper.

 

[domenickj]

Hi, by no means am I an expert.
Not sure if anyone recommended using a ground probe, that should solve any stray electric current in system.
Good luck.

 

[MnFish1]

I think maybe the OP should start a new thread.

I think he got the answers he needed. It would be good to get an update on how things are going from Him/Her

 

[charles7]

freshwater omg !!! , I hope the op is still around .

Its a comparison not saying its the same bud, yall do know that when saltwater fish keeping started that most ideas were brought from freshwater and although it shouldnt be copied, the idea. Its how i learned my experience with tds and just applied some general knowledge of ooo metal dissolved in water is tds. The fundamentals are roughly the same as well, water changes, consistency, cues, minus corals vs plants. 2 different worlds and the different species of both are on different scales.

 

[MnFish1]

Please forgive me for joining this discussion but...

It seems to me that we have paradox here.... Sort of.....

So, fish jumped out, thanx to quick reaction, he (or she) was back in water immediately.

Then, fish starts to breath heavy, and obvious reason is not a fact that fish just slammed on hard floor from height, and since we all know that floors are not very suitable place for fish, no, lets test water to see parameters, who probably dont have anything with fact that fish jumped out.

More, lets put some more stress to fish by moving her (or him) to another tank.

Then, lets notice some crabs that move slowly.... As we all know, crabs love to pull The Flash all the time, speeding trough tank 24/7.... So, lets remove them also. While we are here, lets make water change, ignoring fact that all tested parameters are good.

Jesus, if my crabs didnt move from one place in days, then i will check them, crab that is moving slowly is nothing that worries me. Crab that like to walk on my tank braces also falls into that - dont worry me.

Then, corals look bit stressed after wc.... Totaly normal. It can be salt, maybe you miss ph, temp was different, alk.... Or maybe nothing. Then, even if corals dont look happy, lets make two more 90% changes.....

I think u see where i'm going with this

Possible tank crash was consequence, not cause....

There is sooo many things one can do before it starts to panick and pull things out if tank, doing massive water changes....

And i apologize, but, didn's see that you do at least one of them....

But, good luck.

You make several very valid points. It was my impression - that when the fish jumped out - it got better in the display tank (which also would have been expected).

It is very common that the 'history' of exactly what was done - and why is missing - and I think you're right thats part of the problem here. Take the wrasse for example - if the wrasse kept breathing fast in the DT or died - it could have been related to an injury. However - if the wrasse was normal in the DT - and then looked 'sick' again in the other tank - that suggests something else. Likewise with the crabs, etc. We don't have that information.

But - unless the salt was mixed exactly properly, was the same pH, temp, salinity, etc etc - you're right - (and in the absence of any metals) - the changes may have caused more issues than it solved. I will say - it is common - for fish to jump out of tanks - and inverts to climb out of tanks - where water contains some kind of toxin/low oxygen, electrical issue (which is constantly debated here). So - it seems that without further information about the timeline of what happened and the rationale - it might be difficult to get a lot further - without an ICP test

 

[Koh23]

Yes, too many unknown factors here.....

Not sure under what circumstances will i make that connection....

Fish jumped=fish saved
Fish saved=fish breath heavy=fish jumped

So, either fact that fish jumped is totally unrelated, or "something" totaly related caused fish to jump....

How, when, what and why is "something" that can make fish jump and crabs to take it slow.... Not really sure.

 

[\m/reefsnmetal\m/]

Something like this i wouldve enjoyed more than a shoot down. I just shot a message and i think it explains my pov much better and my experience with magnets and a potential crash.

I don't think the initial response to your message was intended to shoot you down. I think it was just a shorthand version of my response that was taken out of context and then the conversation devolved from there. It happens all the time in the forums, anyway, good luck going forward.

 

[charles7]

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I don't think the initial response to your message was intended to shoot you down. I think it was just a shorthand version of my response that was taken out of context and then the conversation devolved from there. It happens all the time in the forums, anyway, good luck going forward.

Yeah in the heat of it, it can be taken ill. Especially when its not face to face. A lot of the things ive seen about my comments were meant that way or are taken in a different sense like specific measurements rather than saying that metal is in the whole sum. Whether is nickle, zinc, or something else. So im assuming i did the same with a lot of yalls posts as well.