Help! Praziquantel and Cupramine

[VJV]

Hi, I bought a powder blue tang and put it quarantine as I do all my fish. After one week it started flashing its fins a lot and rubbing against the PVC pipes and just about any hard surface he can find. I do not see any white spots so not sure if it is Ich or velvet. The fish is still eating ok.

Unsure whether this may be flukes or ich, I had to decide whether to use praziquantel for flukes or Cupramine for ich or velvet. Since I understand the last two are a lot more deadly than flukes I decided to go with Cupramine. I am currently at the 0,25 dose and tomorrow will bring it up to the recommended 0,50, but thus far the fish continues to flash and rub.

So the question is this: can I perform a praziquantel bath (in a bucket outside of the QT) to cater for potential flukes as well or can praziquantel interact with the Cupramine and transform it into something toxic, and potentially kill the fish?

Note that the bath would be performed in a separate bucket with fresh water (no Cupramine) but even so I was wondering if there could still be some toxic interaction as some copper may have already been "absorbed" by the organism of the PB?

Any help would be GREATLY appreciated.

Kind regards

PS: the praziquantel I use actually Treamazol, from Sera. It is meant for flukes (both skin and gill) and the composition is 7,42g of praziquantel per 100ml. Not sure if it has any other substances though.

 

[redfishbluefish]

I'm as dump as a lummox, but @Humblefish most likely can help.

 

[Humblefish]

I have safely mixed Cupramine and praziquantel (specifically, Prazipro) several times. Tremazol lists praziquantel as it's only active ingredient, so it should be safe to mix as well. The only downside is the presence of copper diminishes praziquantel's overall effectiveness.

Another option would be to give the fish a FW dip, to confirm the presence of flukes. See below.

Freshwater Dip: Provides temporary relief for Brooklynella, Flukes, Marine Velvet disease (Amyloodinium); possibly even Ich & Uronema marinum (both unproven). Can be used to confirm the presence of Flukes.

How To Treat - Fill a bucket with RODI water, and use a heater to match the temperature to the water the fish is coming from. Aerate the water heavily for at least 30 minutes prior to doing the dip, then discontinue aeration while performing the dip. Fish aren’t overly pH sensitive for short durations like this, but you can squirt a little tank water into the dip just before the fish goes in to help bring it up.

Place the fish in the freshwater (FW) dip and observe closely. It is not unusual for them to freak out a little at first. Also, tangs are notorious for “playing dead” during a FW dip. The important thing is to watch their gills; they should be breathing heavily at all times during the dip. If breathing slows, it’s time to exit the dip. Dip the fish for no longer than 5 minutes. Multiple dips may be done, but it’s important to give your fish a day to recuperate in-between dips.

For flukes, use a dark (preferably black) bucket so you can see if tiny white worms fall out of the fish (especially out of the gills) at around the 3-4 minute mark. The worms will settle to the bottom, so you can use a flashlight to look for them there as well.

Pros - Provides temporary relief for a wide range of diseases in a chemical free environment. Can “buy you more time” until a proper treatment can be done.

Cons/Side Effects - Not a permanent “fix” for any disease, as FW dips are not potent enough to eradicate all of the parasites/worms afflicting the fish. Some fish can have an adverse reaction to a FW dip by appearing unable to maintain their equilibrium once returned to the aquarium. If this happens, hold the fish upright (using latex, nitrile or rubber gloves), and gently glide him through the water (to get saltwater flowing through the gills again). It is also a good idea to place the fish in an acclimation box until he appears “normal”.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

In my experiance the largest culprit is the commensal protozoa Ichtyobodo that lives on the fish itself. When stressed the protozoa becomes pathogenic and disrupts the fishes ability to osmoregulate. As a result the host fish experiences organ failure and dies. The protozoa then becomes water born and seeks a new host. In a large population this can mean extensive loss in the total community. The most effective treatment is preventing the protozoa from becomming pathogenic by use of a correctly sized U.V. sterilizer. Other therapy and control are mentioned in The Textbook of Fish Health page 165. Increasing water flow through a system (like partial water changes) and altering the pH are listed as alternatives. I paid a lot of money and spent time with a Washington State University Veterinarian to end losses in several large display aquaria. The addition of chillers and the U.V. sterilizers as I originally specified in the design ended the problems. I had to have the science to convince the customers before they would spend the money on the cure.

 

[4FordFamily]

I've used both without issue as well but got the fish used to cupramine first

 

[VJV]

Thank you all for the feedback! Much appreciated! I am aware of FWD, read a lot about it, but never actually did one so that makes me kind of nervous. The other thing is I have read that you should never mix hypo salinity with copper so I wonder if taking the fish out of copper into a FWD would be dangerous? Regarding the issue of copper impact on Praziquantel, would you say that it would still happen even if I do the bath in a bucket containing fresh water (no copper)? If so, any idea how much should the dose be increase to keep its effectiveness?

I do have a properly sized UV in my main display, but not in the QT since I use medicine in that one.

I believe that before I do any further treatment that may stress the fish I will first raise the Cupramine dosage to the recommended 0,50 (tomorrow). If after a couple of days the symptoms persist I will than decide whether to a FWD or a praziquantel (Tremazol) bath. Hopefully the PBT will make it.

Again, thanks for all the help!

 

[Humblefish]

In my experiance the largest culprit is the commensal protozoa Ichtyobodo that lives on the fish itself. When stressed the protozoa becomes pathogenic and disrupts the fishes ability to osmoregulate. As a result the host fish experiences organ failure and dies. The protozoa then becomes water born and seeks a new host. In a large population this can mean extensive loss in the total community. The most effective treatment is preventing the protozoa from becomming pathogenic by use of a correctly sized U.V. sterilizer. Other therapy and control are mentioned in The Textbook of Fish Health page 165. Increasing water flow through a system (like partial water changes) and altering the pH are listed as alternatives. I paid a lot of money and spent time with a Washington State University Veterinarian to end losses in several large display aquaria. The addition of chillers and the U.V. sterilizers as I originally specified in the design ended the problems. I had to have the science to convince the customers before they would spend the money on the cure.

Parasites from genus Ichthyobodo primarily afflict FW fish. I believe only one species, Ichthyobodo hippoglossi, has been discovered in marine fish i.e. Atlantic halibut. Atlantic halibut are a coldwater species, living primarily in or near arctic waters. As such, they would never come into contact with the tropical SW fish we mostly keep in home aquariums.

 

[Humblefish]

The other thing is I have read that you should never mix hypo salinity with copper so I wonder if taking the fish out of copper into a FWD would be dangerous? Regarding the issue of copper impact on Praziquantel, would you say that it would still happen even if I do the bath in a bucket containing fresh water (no copper)? If so, any idea how much should the dose be increase to keep its effectiveness?

The fish needs to be exposed to praziquantel for at least 24 hrs. Therefore, a "prazi bath" would be largely ineffective. Even still, you must treat the fish with prazi again 5-7 days after the initial treatment. The reason for the second dose is to eradicate the “next generation” of worms before they can lay eggs of their own. Because while Prazi does kill worms, it doesn’t eliminate any eggs they might leave behind.

I have given fish a FW dip many times whilst they were being actively treated with a chemical, including copper. I've never noticed any negative reactions. The only thing is tangs do like to “playing dead” during a FW dip; but so long as their gills are breathing (heavily) you are fine.

 

[hybridazn]

It is safe to dose both of those at the same time. As mentioned above a quick "bath" of the prazi will be ineffective and basically a waste of time.

 

[VJV]

It is safe to dose both of those at the same time. As mentioned above a quick "bath" of the prazi will be ineffective and basically a waste of time.

Thanks. It would not be a quick bath, but a 6h as per Tremazol instructions. Tremazol tells you to add the medicine, wait 6h and than do at least a 80% water change. So my plan was to put it in a separate bucket with the Tremazol for 6h.

 

[VJV]

The fish needs to be exposed to praziquantel for at least 24 hrs. Therefore, a "prazi bath" would be largely ineffective. Even still, you must treat the fish with prazi again 5-7 days after the initial treatment. The reason for the second dose is to eradicate the “next generation” of worms before they can lay eggs of their own. Because while Prazi does kill worms, it doesn’t eliminate any eggs they might leave behind.

I have given fish a FW dip many times whilst they were being actively treated with a chemical, including copper. I've never noticed any negative reactions. The only thing is tangs do like to “playing dead” during a FW dip; but so long as their gills are breathing (heavily) you are fine.

Many thanks humble Fish! As per my other post, Tremazol instructions specifically state that the standard treatment should only last 6h, and than do a 80% (at least) water change. They than say that you should repeat in 7 days. Maybe it works a bit differently?

 

[VJV]

Here are a couple of videos. Sorry for the poor quality as these were taken with the iPad.

 

[VJV]

Update: this morning I increased the dosage to 0,375 and by the end of the day will increase again to the final concentration of 0,50.

A couple of questions:

1- if what the PBT has is in fact ich, how long should it take before it starts to show signs of improvement (less flashing and scratching)

2- if in fact it is flukes, will the copper also work on flukes? I have read several thread on this subject and while several people will say it does (including Seachem) several others say the contrary (as so many things in this hobby). What is your experience?

Many thanks

 

[VJV]

Another update: the PB is still scratching and flashing. I will be giving it a FWD in order to try and provide some immediate relief. It is going to be my first so which me luck.

Will a FWD be effective against gill flukes as well?

 

[miyags]

Copper only kills ich when it falls off the fish, you need to give it time, fresh water dip at this point may be fatal.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

Parasites from genus Ichthyobodo primarily afflict FW fish. I believe only one species, Ichthyobodo hippoglossi, has been discovered in marine fish i.e. Atlantic halibut. Atlantic halibut are a coldwater species, living primarily in or near arctic waters. As such, they would never come into contact with the tropical SW fish we mostly keep in home aquariums.

According to the quoted text both freshwater and saltwater fish are affected. In the cases I mentioned the diagnosis was made through Decropsy of affected individuals collected from the marine displays just prior to death and delivered directly to the Dr. Perhaps I missed the correct name of the of the protoza. I may have to find the original report to make sure I have not miss named the protoza. Nevertheless, the majority of problems in both retail and wholesale closed holding systems are prevented by better quality filtration and use of U.V. sterilizers. In open systems increasing water flow through the system can improve the outcome. In the text there are two types of Ichtyobodo mentioned but others are allude to. "Ichtyobodo species are common inhabitants of the skin and gills of freshwater and marine fishes." Page 163 of Textbook of Fish Health, Dr. George Post, revised 1987. Another older common name for the generic name is Costia (Costiasis) which is corrected to Ichtyobodo in the text.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

In my opinion the biggest problem in the use of medications for treatment is the complete lack of diagnosis though the use of slides or cultures to determine the actual causitive organism before a treatment is developed. This shotgun approach is not benificial but a detriment to the hobby. Prevention is the best approach but prophylactic medication use can lead to the development of resistant target organisms. This is a major concern in the current practice of medicine. Should we ignore the results of drug resistant strains in human biology and continue the practice in animal husbandry? Healthy fish fight off most infection though natural means. Good water quality and nutrution go a long way toward prevention. Stress accelarates the disease process in most cases. By limiting the stress we can reduce disease. Just some thoughts.

 

[VJV]

Thanks for your post. I used to have the same approach until I lost almost all my fish. Now I treat every fish prophilacticaly. I also do not believe that you can avoid the disease by minimizing stress. You either have the parasite or you don't. And if you do, no matter how healthy and stress free your fish are at some point you will introduce a weaker fish and an outbreak will kill off several, if not all of your fish. This is my view but right now I would like to keep this thread on the subject of treating my PBT for the symptoms it is exhibiting currently. I appreciate your input but do not want to turn this into another "to treat or not to treat" discussion which will lead no where and certainly not help this fish.

 

[Humblefish]

1- if what the PBT has is in fact ich, how long should it take before it starts to show signs of improvement (less flashing and scratching)

When behavioral symptoms will cease is tricky to predict. This is because they can persist even after trophonts have dropped off the fish. Trophonts feed on the fish's skin (and inside the gills); this irritates the fish which is why they will flash/scratch. However, after the trophonts leave the skin begins to heal and this causes an itching sensation (similar to after you've had a sunburn). This itching sensation will also cause the fish to flash/scratch for awhile.

2- if in fact it is flukes, will the copper also work on flukes? I have read several thread on this subject and while several people will say it does (including Seachem) several others say the contrary (as so many things in this hobby). What is your experience?

Copper does not effectively treat flukes in SW fish. Praziquantel is your best option, or in some rare cases you may need to treat with formalin if prazi resistant flukes are encountered.

 

[VJV]

Update: ended up not doing the FWD. could not get the PH to stabilize at the level that my QT was (8,33dKH) and was afraid that too much of a change could kill the fish. Decided to treat with Tremazol (praziquantel) in a separate bucket for 6h. I placed a heater and an airstone in the bucket and used freshly mixed water (in order not to use water from the QT that had cupramine@0,375). During that time I did a 60% water change in the QT to lower copper concentration so that it would not be too much of a shock for the PB when he would return to the QT after the 6h.

The 6h went by without incident, and during that time he was actually a lot calmer and did not see him flash or scratch.

He is now back in the QT and I have raised the Cupramine concentration to about 0,27. after a period of settling in he is now back to flashing and scratching.

Tomorrow I will raise the copper to 0,375 again and will wait 5 days before getting it to the 0,5 level.

At this point I believe there is not much else I can do but wait and hope the Cupramine treatment works.