Help setting a second tank when already have ICH in the first

[Livio]

Hi guys, my name is Livio, I live in Europe and my current tank is a custom 40 gal AIO (corals and fish) which is 1 year old.

About 2 months I probably brought ICH into my tank (classic story, 11 fish sourced from the same LFS were fine but the 12th was not).

Since then, I started seeing from 1 to 3 spots on my clowns and chromis, spots which disappear after 1 day. On the clowns they leave a small white ulceration which takes another 2 days to heal.

This has happened 3 times already, with about 2 weeks in between, so I am pretty sure it is ICH and I am also fairly confident that my fish are able to resist it.

However, I want to setup a second 75 gal tank and it is neither feasible nor desirable for me to think that I will manage not to contaminate between the tanks in the long term. Actually I want to populate the second tank with coral from the first.

So my question to you is this: what is the best way to proceed in trying to eradicate the ICH so that I can successfully setup the second tank?

My list of current fish: 2 clowns, 3 chromis, 1 scooter blenny, 1 midas blenny, 1 mandarin goby, 1 tail spot blenny, 1 fire goby, 1 bangaii cardinal.

My list of desired fish for the 75 gal does include an yellow tang.

I can run the current tank fallow for as long as I have to, but the question is where it is best to treat the fish (in the new 75 gal or in another QT tank) and with what: cupramine or another product etc

thank you and sorry for the long post.

 

[Frtdrmrose7]

Typically the best treatment for ich is copper, depending on what you have could determine which copper to use (ionic or checkered). What fish are in your tank?

 

[Livio]

Hi, these are my fish: 2 clowns, 3 chromis, 1 scooter blenny, 1 midas blenny, 1 mandarin goby, 1 tail spot blenny, 1 fire goby, 1 bangaii cardinal.

where do you think I should treat them? in the new tank or in another, smaller, QT?
(there is of course the issue of copper left in the water, I would probably have to dump all the 75G after treating)

and should I do a full dose treatment or longer, prophylactic one? apart from the 2 clowns and 1 chromis, no other fish have shown any signs (including scratching/ flashing etc)

 

[Frtdrmrose7]

Hi, these are my fish: 2 clowns, 3 chromis, 1 scooter blenny, 1 midas blenny, 1 mandarin goby, 1 tail spot blenny, 1 fire goby, 1 bangaii cardinal.

where do you think I should treat them? in the new tank or in another, smaller, QT?
(there is of course the issue of copper left in the water, I would probably have to dump all the 75G after treating)

and should I do a full dose treatment or longer, prophylactic one? apart from the 2 clowns and 1 chromis, no other fish have shown any signs (including scratching/ flashing etc)

Treating your display with copper will be tough for a few reasons so you should use a smaller QT. Since you have a Mandarin I’m assuming you have live rock and that will absorb copper and cause issues, copper will kill all inverts, etc.
if you have ich in your DT all of your fish have been exposed and should be quarantined. Can you upload any pics of the sick fish so we can try to confirm ich and save you treating for it if it’s really something else?

 

[Livio]

I cannot post pictures as all my fish have no signs right now. But I'm 99% sure it is ICH because the last fish I introduced had it and also died from it - it was a small yellow tang which broke with ICH 1 day after I introduced it.
I took it out on day 2 and put him in QT but it died before my cupramine order arrived.

Treating with copper in the current DT is out of the question, of course.
The question is whether I should treat in the new 75 gal (empty at the moment) or in another, smaller QT.

I have almost made up my mind - I will probably move all fish to the empty 75 gal and treat there.

Questions are:
- what should I treat with? do all my fish tolerate cupramine?
- if I go with cupramine, what kind of treatment, i.e. full dose 14 days or prophylactic dose for longer.

 

[dwest]

I cannot post pictures as all my fish have no signs right now. But I'm 99% sure it is ICH because the last fish I introduced had it and also died from it - it was a small yellow tang which broke with ICH 1 day after I introduced it.
I took it out on day 2 and put him in QT but it died before my cupramine order arrived.

Treating with copper in the current DT is out of the question, of course.
The question is whether I should treat in the new 75 gal (empty at the moment) or in another, smaller QT.

I have almost made up my mind - I will probably move all fish to the empty 75 gal and treat there.

Questions are:
- what should I treat with? do all my fish tolerate cupramine?
- if I go with cupramine, what kind of treatment, i.e. full dose 14 days or prophylactic dose for longer.

The following link will tell you which fish can handle copper
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fish-and-treatment-guidelines-with-chart.283450/

Then i personally would use this quarantine method.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/my-current-qt-process.483371/page-10#post-5564349

 

[Livio]

thank you
as far as I can see, the problem is treating the mandarin (and probably the dragonet), which is in fact ruining almost any option for treating
either I treat them and run the risk of losing them, or I do not treat them which runs the risk of rendering the treatment for other fish useless

dang it reefing is hard

 

[Claus84]

thank you
as far as I can see, the problem is treating the mandarin (and probably the dragonet), which is in fact ruining almost any option for treating
either I treat them and run the risk of losing them, or I do not treat them which runs the risk of rendering the treatment for other fish useless

dang it reefing is hard

If I were you I would set up a live baby brine shrimp feeder for the mandarin in your current tank, get it used to using it for a month or so and then move all fish (and a new / sterile feeder) to a QT. Then use chloroquine phosphate instead of copper, IME baby brine will survive this but they will not survive copper. This is the only way you will keep a mandarin fed in a barren QT, especially if you are leaving it in there for 76 days while your rock goes fallow.

 

[Claus84]

Also I don't think think treating in your new tank is a good idea. You would be better off moving all of your rock and corals to the new tank and use then 40 for a QT I think. If you are trying to avoid buying another, decent size QT that is.

Catch and bucket your fish then give the 40 a good clean with vinegar and leave to air dry overnight, wipe clean, fill with new water and add alot pipes etc, pre-dose with CP then add the fish. Then wait out for the 76 day fallow to end on the new tank.

It's what I would do in your situation if you want to avoid buying another large QT but I'm no expert

 

[Livio]

If I were you I would set up a live baby brine shrimp feeder for the mandarin in your current tank, get it used to using it for a month or so and then move all fish (and a new / sterile feeder) to a QT. Then use chloroquine phosphate instead of copper, IME baby brine will survive this but they will not survive copper. This is the only way you will keep a mandarin fed in a barren QT, especially if you are leaving it in there for 76 days while your rock goes fallow.

both my mandarin and dragonet eat frozen and even pellet, so that's not a problem
the problem is that I do not think I can source chloroquine phosphate in my country (will do a little bit more research but I am pessimistic)

I will have to think about it, but at first glance it makes no sense to me to treat in my current DT - it is a well established reef with plenty of coral, sand, refugium etc so I see no point in moving my corals to a new, uncycled tank with new lighthing, and bombing all existing invert life with copper

a solution is to move the fish in my new 75 gal but do not fill it all the way up, instead fill about 25 -30 gallons (to save on some salt/water cost)

I could then wait 2-3 months with no treatment (fallow period for my first tank), then at the end of these 2-3 months do TTM for the mandarin and dragonet (using 5 gallon tanks) while treating with cupramine the rest of the fish for 14 days and moving all of them afterwards back in the 40 gal

it's going to be some work, but at this point this the best solution I can think of

 

[Claus84]

I will have to think about it, but at first glance it makes no sense to me to treat in my current DT - it is a well established reef with plenty of coral, sand, refugium etc so I see no point in moving my corals to a new, uncycled tank with new lighthing, and bombing all existing invert life with copper

I wasn't suggesting you bomb all the current life, i was assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that your plan was to break this tank down anyway and move everything into the 75 in the future. Just suggesting it as an option for you to move it all over first, you shouldn't see a cycle if you are moving all of your liverock over with the corals etc.

 

[Livio]

I wasn't suggesting you bomb all the current life, i was assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that your plan was to break this tank down anyway and move everything into the 75 in the future. Just suggesting it as an option for you to move it all over first, you shouldn't see a cycle if you are moving all of your liverock over with the corals etc.

a, ok, understood, sorry for not being explicit
no, I plan to continue with the current setup as well as the new 75 g

I plan to focus on LPS and SPS in the existing 40g and do a low maintenance soft coral in the 75g

 

[Claus84]

a, ok, understood, sorry for not being explicit
no, I plan to continue with the current setup as well as the new 75 g

I plan to focus on LPS and SPS in the existing 40g and do a low maintenance soft coral in the 75g

Ahh okay in that case my plan makes no sense at all

 

[Claus84]

My bad as I misread your original post

Be sure to read @Humblefish thread on aerosol transmission while you are coming up with a plan so you don't end up inadvertantly cross contaminating and reinfecting your fish, particularly if you have to place your QT in the same room as your infected 40.

 

[Livio]

ok, thanks for the heads up - of course they are in the same room )
this is getting so difficult to the point that it's ridiculous and I'm seriously thinking of abandoning the whole idea of a second reef completely and do a freshwater tank instead )
hopefully marine ich is not viable in FW )

 

[Claus84]

ok, thanks for the heads up - of course they are in the same room )
this is getting so difficult to the point that it's ridiculous and I'm seriously thinking of abandoning the whole idea of a second reef completely and do a freshwater tank instead )
hopefully marine ich is not viable in FW )

I always find quarantining a PITA to be honest but it's worth it. I just upgraded from 350l reef and 200l fowlr to a 1200l tank and including my old tanks had 7 tanks running at one point with various fish refusing food, ammonia spikes due to meds damaging the filter etc! Huge hassle but if a disease free DT is the end result I'm happy to do it!