Help to positively identify as ich before medicating (again)

[midwestE]

Little background here: New reefer here and like new reefers do, I added some fish to my DT without quarantine (yada yada LFS had already quarantined). Well got an ich outbreak of course. Never again, lesson learned.

Did a lot of research and decided to go with Cupramine (Seachem test kit) to get the little buggers back to health.

• Read lots of posts here to learn as much as possible about treatment and running a successful QT ( lots of @Humblefish posts! )
• Setup a quarantine and let it run a few days, adding Seachem stability
  
• Over 48 hours I increased the cupramine dose to .5
• On day 16 I saw what looked like spots on the blue hippo - increased it to .6
• On day 28 started to remove copper via 30% water change, cuprisorb and leftover piece of Poly Filter
• 4 days post copper (day 32), spots appeared on the blue hippo again
• 6 days post copper (day 34), more spots appeared and hippo is flashing

Other Notes about HT:

• All fish added to HT at the same time. A few other fish in there with him
• No others show any spots
• When doing water changes (50% every 3 days), I pre-added the cupramine to the make up water at .5 concentration (.6 after day 16) so at no point was the concentration below ~.5
• HOB filter with carbon removed - Sponge, piece of marine pure from DT, and some ceramic that came with it
• PVC elbows
• Couple plastic plants - Wifey request
• Have separate set of gear just for HT, nothing from main DT used in HT
• One bin for removing HT water, one for new water

Looking to make sure this is ich before sending him and his couple buddies back to Copperville. If it is indeed ich, any advice as to what may have happened or what to look out for/improve on?

 

[JumboShrimp]

Am I reading correctly that you were not “at” a full therapeutic level of copper “for” a full 30 days? Because it does not seem that you eradicated the problem.

 

[midwestE]

Am I reading correctly that you were not “at” a full therapeutic level of copper “for” a full 30 days? Because it does not seem that you eradicated the problem.

Per the instructions on the cupramine bottle, .5 is the recommended dose... however, it was only for 28 days vs 30. Sorry my explanation may have been wrong. I started removing the copper 28 days after it was at .5

 

[JumboShrimp]

That was what I pieced together— so even if you had 28 days at a full .5, you were still 2 days short. Could theoretically be “incomplete”, prompting a relapse

 

[Art2249]

No expert here but was told that i needed a more accurate copper test. Hanna checker?

 

[JumboShrimp]

1,000% agree on the Hanna Copper Checker.

 

[midwestE]

At this point, it's worth picking up a hanna checker because I sure the hell won't put any fish into the DT that aren't treated

 

[midwestE]

Anyone else care to chime in? I have to make sure this time it's addressed properly. Longer duration than 30 days? Higher concentration?

 

[dwest]

Anyone else care to chime in? I have to make sure this time it's addressed properly. Longer duration than 30 days? Higher concentration?

I know you are frustrated. I’ve been there. I know that for 20 plus years Ive dealt with color change copper test kits and ionic copper. The switch to using chelated copper power and Hannah tester is a real game changer for me.

 

[midwestE]

I know you are frustrated. I’ve been there. I know that for 20 plus years Ive dealt with color change copper test kits and ionic copper. The switch to using chelated copper power and Hannah tester is a real game changer for me.

Thanks for the reply. I just feel bad for the fish, as I'm their caretaker and want to limit my mistakes.
So in your estimation was the duration possibly not long enough? Was .5 not high enough as in the strain may be resistant? Other than a hanna checker any other words of advice?

 

[dwest]

Thanks for the reply. I just feel bad for the fish, as I'm their caretaker and want to limit my mistakes.
So in your estimation was the duration possibly not long enough? Was .5 not high enough as in the strain may be resistant? Other than a hanna checker any other words of advice?

I am no expert with disease. It’s hard to identify diseases with pictures, but did you ever consider flukes?
@HotRocks

 

[dwest]

I would start by doing a freshwater dip to check for flukes.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/freshwater-dip.248898/

Depending on what the dip tells me, I would likely quarantine using this procedure
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/my-current-qt-process.483371/

 

[falconut]

Agreed the best test method is the Hanna Checker. I did a 30 day cupramine treatments on my group if fish using the Seachem test. I was at a show that had the copper checker, so I picked it up. I tested my water that I thought was around 0.45 & it was reading in the 0.25 range, so way below the recommended level. This was around 3 weeks, so I upped the level & think I when like 2 weeks at that level. Because they all looked great, I dropped it down. A few months later it came back, nothing else added during this time.

Now I started the treatment at the correct level between 0.45 - 0.5 and hopefully I'll irradicate it this time with the full dosage for the full period.

I'd guess that your eyes were like mine & your levels were under the correct level. IMO a Hanna us a must for copper. I wish you luck, these things can drive you crazy.

 

[midwestE]

Agreed the best test method is the Hanna Checker. I did a 30 day cupramine treatments on my group if fish using the Seachem test. I was at a show that had the copper checker, so I picked it up. I tested my water that I thought was around 0.45 & it was reading in the 0.25 range, so way below the recommended level. This was around 3 weeks, so I upped the level & think I when like 2 weeks at that level. Because they all looked great, I dropped it down. A few months later it came back, nothing else added during this time.

Now I started the treatment at the correct level between 0.45 - 0.5 and hopefully I'll irradicate it this time with the full dosage for the full period.

I'd guess that your eyes were like mine & your levels were under the correct level. IMO a Hanna us a must for copper. I wish you luck, these things can drive you crazy.

I have a 29 gallon HT and the cupramine instructions calls for 2mL per 10.5 gallons to achieve .5

2 mL / 10.5 g = .19 mL/g
.19 mL/g * 29 g = 5.52 mL

Assuming you did similar, are you saying that the Hanna checker showed your levels were far below the expected?

 

[falconut]

I treated them in a 90 gallon tank I was taking down, so it was already cycled with a few pieces of rock & sand. So I had to account for some of it being absorbed. It did absorb a lot.

 

[midwestE]

I would start by doing a freshwater dip to check for flukes.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/freshwater-dip.248898/

Depending on what the dip tells me, I would likely quarantine using this procedure
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/my-current-qt-process.483371/

I have not considered flukes. I've generally followed the linked QT post in terms of medicating food, introduction into QT, and procedure with some variations. I treated the fish with ABX before copper instead of during, and I don't have an extra tank to transfer the fish to after 14 days of copper

 

[Reefahholic]

Looks like ICH man. Give him another round of copper. Make sure you're at therapeutic. Combine it with TTM to have a bulletproof plan this time.

Edit: Get the Hanna Copper Checker like mentioned above. You'll be glad you did.

 

[AquaLifeStudio]

This may have been what happened as I've had to come to the realization myself through trial and error.

You add a fish that has ich to your hospital tank. Ich falls off fish within the first few hours and begins to become a cyst which can not be destroyed by anything that will not also kill your fish. 4 weeks later, your fish are still in the same tank but you begin to drop the copper and eventually drops below therapeutic levels. Ich cysts explode and the free swimmers attack your fish again, completely wasting your previous efforts.

My suggestion is that you maintain a therapeutic copper level and transfer the fish to a sterile environment. Once you really understand the life cycle of this parasite, you can begin to figure out how to eradicate it.

Once the parasite falls off your fish, typically no longer than 7 days, and a therapeutic level of copper exists, your fish is protected against reinfection.

 

[Tft12]

The picture definitely looks like ich. Kind of perfectly like ich.

Your first post says you had new spots show up after 16 days at the suggested dose. This shouldn’t happen. Possibilities are that you have something other than ich (relatively unlikely), your ich is resistant to copper (unlikely), or there was something wrong with the dose (most likely option in my opinion). The Hanna checker is great. I started using one a few years ago and it made qt a whole easier. I was tending to overdose with copper before I got the checker.

Do you have any sand or rocks in your HT that could adsorb the copper and lower your concentration?

 

[midwestE]

The picture definitely looks like ich. Kind of perfectly like ich.

Your first post says you had new spots show up after 16 days at the suggested dose. This shouldn’t happen. Possibilities are that you have something other than ich (relatively unlikely), your ich is resistant to copper (unlikely), or there was something wrong with the dose (most likely option in my opinion). The Hanna checker is great. I started using one a few years ago and it made qt a whole easier. I was tending to overdose with copper before I got the checker.

Do you have any sand or rocks in your HT that could adsorb the copper and lower your concentration?

No rocks or sand in the HT. Based on your and others feedback, I ordered a Hanna checker for copper. I agree, that small breakout at day 16 is a pretty good indicator that the dose must have been off. Checker comes in Wednesday or Thursday so I'm starting today ramping up the copper again