help to quiet my bean animal overflow

[tworegtdi]

Hi guys, really need your help here as my drain keeps making loud splash noises, no matter how I tune the pump and gate valve.

Backgrounder:

running dual 3/4 returns and 1 inch siphon, open channel and emergency drain (typical bean animal). See photo attached.

Pumps: two vectra m1, system volume is about 280 gallon.

Siphon goes into Clarisea SK5000 roller and open channel goes into the sump.

I started out with only one M1 pump running and was able to tune the overflow so it is dead quiet. The problem started when i fired up the 2nd M1 pump, even with both pump running the lowest speed, and gate valve opened all the way, the water level in the overflow box does not fall, initially i thought dual pumps with 3/4 return lines are overwhelming the drains that are 1 inch, but i find it hard to believe given I'm running both pumps at the lowest possible speed. The sound primarily seems to have come from the hole I drilled on top of the open channel drain as it sucks in air.

I temporarily found a solution by converting the open channel drain into full siphon as well. Not sure how i did it but both siphon drains and open channel are fully submerged in water and both running without air in them, apparently this solved the noise issue, Emergency drain is about half inch higher than the open channel drain. Is there any downside for running two drains in full siphon? Am I asking for trouble? Would love to run a classic bean animal but it seems 1 siphon channel isn't large enough to handle the water volume created by two m1 pumps.

Your inputs are greatly appreciated! Cheers.

 

[delandreefer]

Where is the noise from? For example is it a waterfall sound in the pipes, or is it sucking air in the overflow box?

 

[jgirardnrg]

Can't tell from the pics. Is there a hole drilled in the top of the open channel?

 

[tworegtdi]

Where is the noise from? For example is it a waterfall sound in the pipes, or is it sucking air in the overflow box?

it is in the overflow box, the sound is from the hole sucking air

 

[tworegtdi]

Can't tell from the pics. Is there a hole drilled in the top of the open channel?

yes there is, the sound is from the hold sucking air... then as water level rises, the hole is submerged => open channel becomes full siphon => water level in overflow box drops => noise comes back, then repeat

 

[ca1ore]

Check the flow out of the main siphon. You don't have much drop and there's quite a lot of horizontal pipe - perhaps there is some air-locking going on, or even some kind of obstruction. Also, try taking the U off the main siphon bulkhead - it's really not necessary. Either way, with your setup, dual M1 pumps will likely overwhelm a single 1" drain.

 

[tworegtdi]

Check the flow out of the main siphon. You don't have much drop and there's quite a lot of horizontal pipe - perhaps there is some air-locking going on, or even some kind of obstruction. Also, try taking the U off the main siphon bulkhead - it's really not necessary. Either way, with your setup, dual M1 pumps will likely overwhelm a single 1" drain.

I think that might be the issue, a few times I see only little water coming out even when the gate valve is fully open, I had to gently "shake" the end of the main siphon and only then water starts to come out more freely => water level in overflow box drops.

 

[tworegtdi]

Check the flow out of the main siphon. You don't have much drop and there's quite a lot of horizontal pipe - perhaps there is some air-locking going on, or even some kind of obstruction. Also, try taking the U off the main siphon bulkhead - it's really not necessary. Either way, with your setup, dual M1 pumps will likely overwhelm a single 1" drain.

Can I run the "open channel" as a full siphon as well? Any downside for this set up?

 

[WVNed]

You need to change up your fittings inside the box, The valve needs to be on the taller of the 2 drains. Right now closing the valve just forces water down the other drain and you have no control.

 

[tworegtdi]

You need to change up your fittings inside the box, The valve needs to be on the taller of the 2 drains. Right now closing the valve just forces water down the other drain and you have no control.

Really? i thought the valve is always on the "full siphon" drain, which is the shortest among three.

 

[WVNed]

You want to use 2 full siphon drains but only have a valve on one.
I have 4 drains in my box. 2 with valves and 2 without.

 

[tworegtdi]

You want to use 2 full siphon drains but only have a valve on one.
I have 4 drains in my box. 2 with valves and 2 without.

I see what you are saying now. Any down side you could see running two full siphon drains with one emergency? I guess I'll have to simulate the full clog on both siphon to see if emerg can handle the flow.

 

[Chaz D]

Can't you just run the pumps at lower speed? Sounds like you're overpowered, especially since things were fine with the one pump. I've never had to run a bean animal with the gate valve full open, usually I'm at 50% open or less. You have 14X turnover through your sump? Most are fine with 5X.

 

[tworegtdi]

Can't you just run the pumps at lower speed? Sounds like you're overpowered, especially since things were fine with the one pump. I've never had to run a bean animal with the gate valve full open, usually I'm at 50% open or less. You have 14X turnover through your sump? Most are fine with 5X.

I've turned both pump at lowest possible speed and the overflow would still be overwhelmed, i think the issue was the 1st main siphon line was "block" due to trapped air as someone earlier pointed out. I just switch the pipes inside the overflow box, with the taller one in the middle instead (with gate valve below), now I'm running two full siphon drain rather than typical 1 siphon and 1 open channel, the noises are gone with both pumps running at 100%. I don't have an answer to why that is.

Reason for two pumps was primarily because one pump would not be enough after all the manifolds are powered

 

[sharpimage]

Is there a reason the main drain has the 2 9o degree elbows in it to dump in the middle of the sump? I would try to eliminate them, and loose the 2 elbows on the top.

I would not run 2 full syphons. Just looking for trouble with 1 emergency drain.

Also, you really dont need 2 pumps on a 280. Probably overpowering it anyways

 

[tworegtdi]

Is there a reason the main drain has the 2 9o degree elbows in it to dump in the middle of the sump? I would try to eliminate them, and loose the 2 elbows on the top.

I would not run 2 full syphons. Just looking for trouble with 1 emergency drain.

Also, you really dont need 2 pumps on a 280. Probably overpowering it anyways

That was for the clarfisea filter roller which was not pictured here, kinda have to make an elbow like that to "go around" the roller filter and then into the intake.

I'll have to simulate a full block in two siphon to see if the emerg can handle the flow, if not, will have to tune down return pumps a bit, luckily they are DC pumps so at least there is flexibility. One pump unfortunately is not an option because once all the manifold are used, with head pressure lost, it just won't be enough to power the tank.

 

[ca1ore]

I see what you are saying now. Any down side you could see running two full siphon drains with one emergency? I guess I'll have to simulate the full clog on both siphon to see if emerg can handle the flow.

Here's the thing - if a 1" full siphon cannot handle the flow then an open channel emergency will be even worse. I would test your main siphon without all those encumbering elbows and horizontal bits to see if it can handle the flow. Using two drains as siphon eliminates a major point of redundancy.

 

[WVNed]

Even if your emergency goes full siphon it will only replace 1 of the other 2 drains.

 

[tworegtdi]

Here's the thing - if a 1" full siphon cannot handle the flow then an open channel emergency will be even worse. I would test your main siphon without all those encumbering elbows and horizontal bits to see if it can handle the flow. Using two drains as siphon eliminates a major point of redundancy.

makes sense

 

[tworegtdi]

Even if your emergency goes full siphon it will only replace 1 of the other 2 drains.

you are correct sir