Help Understanding Phosphate Adsorption

YankeeTankee

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I read adding inorganic ortho phosphate will adsorb into aragonite (more than organic phos) before it goes into water. Can I create an environment where my rock/sand holds less P and more of it is available in the water column for corals by limiting the amount of inorganic ortho and replacing it with organic phos? If so how would I do this, what products contain the inorganic and which the organic phos?

Is it the "inorganic" part or the "ortho" part or both that is the problem?

Does this make sense or will inorganic phosphate reach this saturation point in my rock anyway leading to swings when parameters change.

@Randy Holmes-Farley @taricha @jda Thank you
 
This is tricky and complicated. Organic phosphate can bind to rock surfaces too, and may not be bioavailable anyway (depending on what it is and what organisms you are talking about.

Adding more inorganic phosphate is likely the easiest plan. There is an equilibrium between bound and unbound, so adding more always leaves some unbound.

If you really want to dig into the mechanism of binding, i discuss it here:

Phosphate In The Reef Aquarium
https://www.reef2reef.com/blog/?p=3184

from it:


A second mechanism for potential phosphate reduction when using high pH additives is the binding of phosphate to calcium carbonate surfaces. The absorption of phosphate from seawater onto aragonite is pH dependent, with the binding maximized at around pH 8.4 and with less binding occurring at lower and higher pH values. Habib Sekha (owner of Salifert) has pointed out that limewater additions may lead to substantial precipitation of calcium carbonate in reef aquaria. This idea makes perfect sense. After all, it is certainly not the case that large numbers of reef aquaria exactly balance calcification needs by replacing all evaporated water with saturated limewater. And yet, many aquarists find that calcium and alkalinity levels are stable over long time periods with just that scenario. One way this can be true is if the excess calcium and alkalinity, which such additions typically add to the aquarium, are subsequently removed by precipitation of calcium carbonate (such as on heaters, pumps, sand, live rock). It is this ongoing precipitation of calcium carbonate, then, that may reduce the phosphate levels; phosphate binds to these growing surfaces and becomes part of the solid precipitate.

If the calcium carbonate crystal is static (not growing), then this process is reversible, and the aragonite can act as a reservoir for phosphate. This reservoir can inhibit the complete removal of excess phosphate from a reef aquarium that has experienced very high phosphate levels, and may permit algae to continue to thrive despite all external phosphate sources having been cut off. In such extreme cases, removal of the substrate may even be required.

If the calcium carbonate deposits are growing, then phosphate may become buried in the growing crystal, which can act as a sink for phosphate, at least until that CaCO3 is somehow dissolved. Additionally, if these crystals are in the water column, e.g., if they form at the local area where limewater hits the aquarium water, then they may become coated with organics and skimmed out of the aquarium.

If phosphate binds to calcium carbonate surfaces to a significant extent in reef aquaria, then this mechanism may be attained with other high pH additive systems (such as some of the two-part additives, including Recipe #1 of my DIY system). However, this potential precipitation of phosphate on growing calcium carbonate surfaces will not be as readily attained with low pH systems, such as those using calcium carbonate/carbon dioxide reactors or those where the pH is low due to excessive atmospheric carbon dioxide, because the low pH inhibits the precipitation of excess calcium and alkalinity as calcium carbonate, as well as inhibiting the binding of phosphate to calcium carbonate.
 
Thanks Randy, Are the following statements true and which have the biggest effect, could you rank them? And how should I think about these, is it useful to think about this at all? How can knowing the following help me?

Phosphate adsorption is increased with these factors (in rdm order)

1. Higher Ca, Alk, and Mag

2. Higher temp

3. Lower salinity

4. Higher surface area
 
Thanks Randy, Are the following statements true and which have the biggest effect, could you rank them? And how should I think about these, is it useful to think about this at all? How can knowing the following help me?

Phosphate adsorption is increased with these factors (in rdm order)

1. Higher Ca, Alk, and Mag

2. Higher temp

3. Lower salinity

4. Higher surface area

I think #4 is the only one that is truly significant for normal absorption, at least within the ranges one would want to experience in a reef tank. Twice the surface area will give twice the binding.

If you get to the point where you are actively precipitating calcium carbonate, which is providing fresh surfaces, then the biggest driver in a normal reef system is pH, followed by alkalinity. High magnesium and high organics deters it. temp drives it on hot objects, but not really by warmer reef tank water vs cooler.
 
From a practical standpoint, if you want higher residual P levels in your water column, then just keep adding it until the aragonite binds up a bit and the water level rises - it will never bind it all. If you got dead/dry rock, this usually has some terrestrial phosphate bound up already. If you have real live and and live rock from the ocean, which is usually pretty phosphate free, then just feed a bunch without using any chaeto, chemicals or media and the aragonite will bind up naturally and your levels will rise.

I strongly suggest that if you are going to get really precise on this, at least have a Hannah Ultra Low so that you are not guessing using a color-matched test kit.
 
Thanks guys, What are some sources of organic phosphate, and inorganic?

@jda my thought was that I would be able to raise P without saturating the rock as much if I am using organic P as a source but this is probably not possible, just an idea I am curious about.
 
Thanks guys, What are some sources of organic phosphate, and inorganic?

@jda my thought was that I would be able to raise P without saturating the rock as much if I am using organic P as a source but this is probably not possible, just an idea I am curious about.

Foods are by far the main source of both. It comes in as organic phospathe msotly and is metabolized by organisms to inorganic P.
 

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