Help using Cupramine with Tang in QT

[citymouse]

I'm thinking I need to treat my yellow Tang (based on advice I got here), i posted in another section about the fish rapidly breathing.
Briefly-He's breathing fast, looks like he's lost weight, still eating and swimming as normal, no visible signs of ich or other parasites.FW dip was clear. He's in in QT since I got him along with a small Kole tang who is perfectly fine. I treated for Flukes back in Nov and Dec. only the yellow showed signs, FW dip confirmed. All was fine up until a few days ago. I had been treating for nitrates so I used NoPox for a couple of weeks, it's been about a week since I used it and I hadn't the day prior. I did a 75% water change on Monday, added an air stone, there is a lot of water movement, agitation at the surface too.

So, it was suggested I copper treat because something is clearly going on with that rapid breathing. I have Cupramine on hand.
So my questions are:

Do I need to remove the very small amount of sand in the tank? (It's less than a cups worth, take is a 20g high, there is no mention of sand being an issue on Seachem's site were the instructions are) Also in the tank: 2 pvc pipes and a fake plant.

Is there any issue with any possible NoPox lingering? would it gone? is it safe to treat Cupramine now?

Is my little fish going to able to handle this treatment? He's about 2" if that, very young. The yellow is a med size.

I've never used copper, the only time in over 9 yrs. I ever needed to medicate a fish was the Flukes a few months back.

 

[redfishbluefish]

Let's see if we can get some disease folks to look at this... @HotRocks , @4FordFamily , @ngoodermuth , #reefsquad .

 

[Big G]

When treating with Cupramine, do not follow the directions on the bottle. They suggest two large doses to get to therapeutic. Generally speaking, for a 20 QT, you will be dosing 18-20 drops (1 ml) per 10.5 gallons X two for the first dose. So a 20 would need approx 72-80 drops total to get to therapeutic level.

Have had much better results if you calculate the total 72-80 drops spread out over several days, 7-8 days for example. So for 8 days the daily dose would be approx 10 drops. But again I would advise 5 drops in the AM and 5 in the PM. This gentle increase of copper allows you to watch for copper sensitive fish. Have had great results s-l-o-w-l-y with Cupramine.

Do you have a Seachem Copper Test kit? It's nice as it has a sample of therapeutic level. Other choice is the even easier Hanna HL Copper Checker.

 

[HotRocks]

When treating with Cupramine, do not follow the directions on the bottle. They suggest two large doses to get to therapeutic. Generally speaking, for a 20 QT, you will be dosing 18-20 drops (1 ml) per 10.5 gallons X two for the first dose. So a 20 would need approx 72-80 drops total to get to therapeutic level.

Have had much better results if you calculate the total 72-80 drops spread out over several days, 7-8 days for example. So for 8 days the daily dose would be approx 10 drops. But again I would advise 5 drops in the AM and 5 in the PM. This gentle increase of copper allows you to watch for copper sensitive fish. Have had great results s-l-o-w-l-y with Cupramine.

Do you have a Seachem Copper Test kit? It's nice as it has a sample of therapeutic level. Other choice is the even easier Hanna HL Copper Checker.

I don't have a ton if info to add the the Excellent post here...

I do prefer chelated copper personally as it is easier to work with and seems to be a little less harsh on the fish.

I would treat the fish with copper if it were me, I treat all of my fish prophylactically.

 

[Big G]

I don't have a ton if info to add the the Excellent post here...

I do prefer chelated copper personally as it is easier to work with and seems to be a little less harsh on the fish.

I would treat the fish with copper if it were me, I treat all of my fish prophylactically.

This exactly ^^^ . I prefer chelated as well. And I treat all incoming "wet" critters: fish (copper), corals & inverts (76 days to starve out ich in fishless QT)

 

[4FordFamily]

When treating with Cupramine, do not follow the directions on the bottle. They suggest two large doses to get to therapeutic. Generally speaking, for a 20 QT, you will be dosing 18-20 drops (1 ml) per 10.5 gallons X two for the first dose. So a 20 would need approx 72-80 drops total to get to therapeutic level.

Have had much better results if you calculate the total 72-80 drops spread out over several days, 7-8 days for example. So for 8 days the daily dose would be approx 10 drops. But again I would advise 5 drops in the AM and 5 in the PM. This gentle increase of copper allows you to watch for copper sensitive fish. Have had great results s-l-o-w-l-y with Cupramine.

Do you have a Seachem Copper Test kit? It's nice as it has a sample of therapeutic level. Other choice is the even easier Hanna HL Copper Checker.

I don't have a ton if info to add the the Excellent post here...

I do prefer chelated copper personally as it is easier to work with and seems to be a little less harsh on the fish.

I would treat the fish with copper if it were me, I treat all of my fish prophylactically.

I’m 4FordFamily and all I can do is endorse these messages.

 

[citymouse]

When treating with Cupramine, do not follow the directions on the bottle. They suggest two large doses to get to therapeutic. Generally speaking, for a 20 QT, you will be dosing 18-20 drops (1 ml) per 10.5 gallons X two for the first dose. So a 20 would need approx 72-80 drops total to get to therapeutic level.

Have had much better results if you calculate the total 72-80 drops spread out over several days, 7-8 days for example. So for 8 days the daily dose would be approx 10 drops. But again I would advise 5 drops in the AM and 5 in the PM. This gentle increase of copper allows you to watch for copper sensitive fish. Have had great results s-l-o-w-l-y with Cupramine.

Do you have a Seachem Copper Test kit? It's nice as it has a sample of therapeutic level. Other choice is the even easier Hanna HL Copper Checker.

Thank you so much!! I'd rather treat this way, I did see something about cutting the dose, this will be very helpful!

I think the copper test is seachem, I'll have to check, I bought it a long time ago.

 

[citymouse]

Yes, it's the seachem copper test, it says "MultiTest Copper" on the box.

 

[citymouse]

Thank you everyone, I only have Cupermine on hand and want to start sooner than later, I feel like I've waited too long already, so I'll go this route and follow the instructions from Big G!

 

[citymouse]

OH, should I be at all concerned about the NoPox usage weeks ago? There were a few water changes since...but I did dose only once recently, when I did the water change, which stupidly I can't remember if it was before the 75% water change or after...I know it would be pointless to do it before, but It was 5am and a last minute decided to change the water because I had already prepared 40g for my big tank, so I grabbed a container and stole the water from those barrels...no cross contamination happened here btw. This was early Monday morning...I wish I remembered, but I know I could have done it with plans on crawling into bed and doing the water change later...then decided "screw it, I'll do it now"...so I may or may not have got the dose of NoPox out of there.

 

[ccombs]

Thank you everyone, I only have Cupermine on hand and want to start sooner than later, I feel like I've waited too long already, so I'll go this route and follow the instructions from Big G!

You have received all the right advice already, most people like chelated copper for many reasons (check out posts by @Humblefish to really dive into treatment).

I do agree to use what you have on hand, I am currently using Cupramine as well because it is what I had, and adding slowly over time seems to be a good move.

A few notes-

You never want to drop below therapeutic levels, even once. Test regularly and reset your QT clock if you drop too low.

Whenever doing a WC, add appropriate amount of copper to new WC water per dosing guide. I just go ahead and add full therapeutic dose (roughly 4 drops per gallon) to my new water for the water change. This way, you don't fall below therapeutic during the water change itself. This allows you to guarantee you are replacing what you are taking out.

 

[citymouse]

You have received all the right advice already, most people like chelated copper for many reasons (check out posts by @Humblefish to really dive into treatment).

I do agree to use what you have on hand, I am currently using Cupramine as well because it is what I had, and adding slowly over time seems to be a good move.

A few notes-

You never want to drop below therapeutic levels, even once. Test regularly and reset your QT clock if you drop too low.

Whenever doing a WC, add appropriate amount of copper to new WC water per dosing guide. I just go ahead and add full therapeutic dose (roughly 4 drops per gallon) to my new water for the water change. This way, you don't fall below therapeutic during the water change itself. This allows you to guarantee you are replacing what you are taking out.

How often do you test?
When you add drops in the AM and PM, what time frame is good, like how many hours apart? Every 12 hrs to maintain consistency?
And what do you mean by "reset your QT clock"? start over?
I've never done this before, pardon my million questions

 

[ccombs]

How often do you test?
When you add drops in the AM and PM, what time frame is good, like how many hours apart? Every 12 hrs to maintain consistency?

I test every couple of days and any time I do a water change.

You can slowly add every day over the course of the week to get to therapeutic level. Just roughly around the same time daily so you don't drastically raise the level too quick. Once you get to therapeutic level it is just keeping it there. The only thing you have to watch once you get to the proper level is when you do major changes like a water change or something.

I use a full top on my QT so evaporation does not play as big of a role in the grand scheme of things.

 

[midwestE]

The seachem test is very hard to read accurately. My first attempt at copper treatment in HT was unsuccessful because this and one other thing:

a small bag of ceramic media in the hob filter absorbed enough copper to drop the levels below therapudic, and the fish came down with ich again on day 16 of 30. Remove carbon or anything that can absorb the copper.

If you know anyone with a hannah copper checker, I would highly recommend borrowing it or buying one! After getting it, copper treatments have been successful

Here was my experience here, maybe helpful:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/help-to-positively-identify-as-ich-before-medicating-again.524907/

 

[citymouse]

According to Seachem, the only thing to remove is chemical filtration/carbon, nothing about ceramic media, I have some kind of ceramic media, maybe matrix in there and the sponge in the HOB filter, nothing else.

I don't know anyone who has saltwater tanks let alone a hannah copper checker and they're too pricey for me right now too.

 

[Big G]

According to Seachem, the only thing to remove is chemical filtration/carbon, nothing about ceramic media, I have some kind of ceramic media, maybe matrix in there and the sponge in the HOB filter, nothing else.

I don't know anyone who has saltwater tanks let alone a hannah copper checker and they're too pricey for me right now too.

Humblefish tested Seachem Matrix and I tested Fluval Biomax for copper absorption. Neither product showed any evidence of absorbing copper. That being said, product sometimes change overtime. So testing is a good thing as ramping up copper. I always use Biomax that has been soaking in the DT sump for at least 30 days or has been soaked overnight in Stability or Biospira. The foam pad in the HOB treated the same way and a foam bubble air filter also treated the same way. This setup with 3 sources of good bacteria in the QT has worked extremely well.

 

[Dr. Reef Verified Sponsor]

i would remove the sand from qt unless its pure silica sand. otherwise it will absorb some medication and maybe leach later, Also ceramic media does not absorb copper. rest all advice above are great.

 

[citymouse]

Couple more questions, for future reference, what brand and where do I buy Chelated copper?

After say 8 days of slowly raising to therapeutic levels, how do I stay at that level, do I follow the instructions on the bottle after getting to that point?

Should i continue reg. water changes and when I do, someone mentioned adding to the water to full dose? I typically will change about half of the water, I haven't two 5g jugs for this tank, do I add the copper to these jugs?

Anything I should watch for in the fish to make sure they're not having any issues with the copper?

 

[Dr. Reef Verified Sponsor]

Copper power is chelated and has a much higher therapeutic range and is easy to measure on many kits.
Personally I don't do water changes between treatments. But if you have reached the therapeutic level in qt and want to do water change then newly mixed saltwater must be dose to same therapeutic levels so during water changes the level of copper doesnt shift.

 

[dwest]

Couple more questions, for future reference, what brand and where do I buy Chelated copper?

After say 8 days of slowly raising to therapeutic levels, how do I stay at that level, do I follow the instructions on the bottle after getting to that point?

Should i continue reg. water changes and when I do, someone mentioned adding to the water to full dose? I typically will change about half of the water, I haven't two 5g jugs for this tank, do I add the copper to these jugs?

Anything I should watch for in the fish to make sure they're not having any issues with the copper?

One brand of chelated copper is copper power. If you use chelated, you’ll need a higher dose (1.75 ppm). You can get it on amazon or LFS. As mentioned above you will do yourself and your fish a HUGE favor if you use a Hanna high range copper test kit.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/copper-treatment.193343/