Help with an age old debate - MH or T5?

[MnFish1]

This question is for the SPS junkies.

Just as the title states, this is another one of those which light is better threads. I have a 150 gallon Acro dominate tank currently running (4) Mars Aqua black boxes with upgraded LED's for better spectrum and (2) 80W ATI Blue+ T5's. I am getting good color and ok growth. However, I feel it just isn't the same as MH or T5's.

I plan on upgrading my lights around OCT/NOV this year. When it comes time then I am not going primary LED anymore. It will be either MH with supplemental LED, MH with supplemental T5, or an 8 bulb T5 fixture.

What would you recommend for this size tank and for an Acro dominate system?

Recent FTS for reference.

I think you would be quite surprised with the G5Pro Radions - I was shocked at the amount of growth and I mean an inch every couple weeks when I upgraded from Radion G4Pro. The coverage is excellent. I have used bulbs (T5) and MH - wouldn't go back. But - whatever you decide good luck

 

[blasterman]

The reason that metal halides have such a distinct look is because they have very narrow bands of spectrum, especially blue. I will again post the link to spectrum tests of various reef metal halides and you can see for yourself. Reef metal halides are polar opposites of full spectrum. Only lasers emit narrower peak wavelengths.

Spectral Analysis of Metal Halide Lamps: AquaMaxx 14000K Series

This article presents a review of the spectral analysis and light output of these lamps when used with a wide variety of ballasts.

reefs.com

Local reef store has a large SPS tank lit with 3x400watt halides....pretty sure they are 14k Radiums. Tank looks great.They also have massive, 24" pendants so the coverage is much better than any over priced Radion could hope for, and the Halides likely cost less.

The main complaint with LED fixtures vs MH, and the OP mentions this is LED fixtures tend to look 'hazy' and indistinct colors with too much purple blue. Well, no #$%^. Royal Blue LEDs have a wider wavelength band than halides, and to make matters worse everybody is cramming those stupid violet LEDs in their lights because a couple of guys wearing baseball caps at BRS claim it's required.

The result is that purple / blue haze every complains about with LED lights making colors look greyish blue. Then you pop on a quality halide and everybody goes "wow....look at those colors." The problem is that many LED fixture have too long a blue spectrum starting at violet which muddes colors. But that's what you guys want, right?

Tell you what...take that same metal halide and cram a bunch of 400-440nm LEDs in it and watch it stink as well. Cheap, generic halide bulbs have this problem. So, the reefing community needs to take some ritalin or something because you have can't have a straw horse with two heads. I've built LED fixtures that look just like halides and all it takes is the proper balance of 450-500 LEDs...but reefers don't want that. You want more 400-450nm...so you can complain how muddy LEDs look I guess.

Also, not sure why the OP is changing LEDs so often. Even my 5 year old black boxes are over 90% PAR and my custom rigs are rated at 100k hours.

 

[Bpb]

The reason that metal halides have such a distinct look is because they have very narrow bands of spectrum, especially blue. I will again post the link to spectrum tests of various reef metal halides and you can see for yourself. Reef metal halides are polar opposites of full spectrum. Only lasers emit narrower peak wavelengths.

Spectral Analysis of Metal Halide Lamps: AquaMaxx 14000K Series

This article presents a review of the spectral analysis and light output of these lamps when used with a wide variety of ballasts.

reefs.com

Local reef store has a large SPS tank lit with 3x400watt halides....pretty sure they are 14k Radiums. Tank looks great.They also have massive, 24" pendants so the coverage is much better than any over priced Radion could hope for, and the Halides likely cost less.

The main complaint with LED fixtures vs MH, and the OP mentions this is LED fixtures tend to look 'hazy' and indistinct colors with too much purple blue. Well, no #$%^. Royal Blue LEDs have a wider wavelength band than halides, and to make matters worse everybody is cramming those stupid violet LEDs in their lights because a couple of guys wearing baseball caps at BRS claim it's required.

The result is that purple / blue haze every complains about with LED lights making colors look greyish blue. Then you pop on a quality halide and everybody goes "wow....look at those colors." The problem is that many LED fixture have too long a blue spectrum starting at violet which muddes colors. But that's what you guys want, right?

Tell you what...take that same metal halide and cram a bunch of 400-440nm LEDs in it and watch it stink as well. Cheap, generic halide bulbs have this problem. So, the reefing community needs to take some ritalin or something because you have can't have a straw horse with two heads. I've built LED fixtures that look just like halides and all it takes is the proper balance of 450-500 LEDs...but reefers don't want that. You want more 400-450nm...so you can complain how muddy LEDs look I guess.

Also, not sure why the OP is changing LEDs so often. Even my 5 year old black boxes are over 90% PAR and my custom rigs are rated at 100k hours.

It has been an interesting process coming to the understanding that led spectral graphs are in fact not artificially smoothed out and that metal halide and t5 bulbs are indeed very peaky with sharp spikes in narrow bands. Not making an argument for or against any one technology. Took me specifically asking some of the people using the spectrometers the specific question “do these leds really emit a wide bell curve of wavelengths centered over their labeled spectra, or is it actually just one wavelength present and the smoothing is applied manually”. I’ll admit my understanding of the actual physics involved in photon production from a diode is limited. But it eased some my concerns over not providing “full spectrum” if using led lighting.

 

[Dr. Jim]

It has been an interesting process coming to the understanding that led spectral graphs are in fact not artificially smoothed out and that metal halide and t5 bulbs are indeed very peaky with sharp spikes in narrow bands. Not making an argument for or against any one technology. Took me specifically asking some of the people using the spectrometers the specific question “do these leds really emit a wide bell curve of wavelengths centered over their labeled spectra, or is it actually just one wavelength present and the smoothing is applied manually”. I’ll admit my understanding of the actual physics involved in photon production from a diode is limited. But it eased some my concerns over not providing “full spectrum” if using led lighting.

Just to be clear, are you saying that the people you asked said that the smoothing is applied manually, (so the LED's aren't really producing a "curve"?) Interesting point....wonder how significant it actually is though.

 

[Bpb]

Just to be clear, are you saying that the people you asked said that the smoothing is applied manually, (so the LED's aren't really producing a "curve"?) Interesting point....wonder how significant it actually is though.

Smoothing NOT manually applied. Diodes actually emitting a range of wavelengths with the peak average point as the advertised wavelenth. As I understand it. Someone whom has more understanding of the equipment can clarify or correct me @Dana Riddle ?

 

[oreo54]

Just to be clear, are you saying that the people you asked said that the smoothing is applied manually, (so the LED's aren't really producing a "curve"?) Interesting point....wonder how significant it actually is though.

All graphs (MH/T5ect.) usually have some smoothing applied..

I've ASKED and NEVER GOT proof (raw scans) that LED's are any more smoothed than any other...

At this point the issue is just FUD...

I've seen spread sheets of raw data and the smoothing would be negligible. Posted one somewhere here as well when this same FUD came up before..

 

[Lousybreed]

Hi I run MH and T5 and I used to run a LED tank only. I have a par meter. All get 180 par for 11 hrs with a 6hr peak of 500-600 par. I have found my favorite set up is either T-5 (ati 8 bulb fixture only) with two Orphek OR3’s LED light bars on each side or Metal halides (10k) with the same OR3’s on the sides. I had the three tanks set up on the same system (multiple tanks on my system). As close to similar fish and circulation. I will say that the results were pretty conclusive. MH, T-5, then LED for growth. LED too the cake on color tho. The growth was so much better I pulled my LED’s on the LED only tank and went T5 and OR3’s. Those corals took off. Do halides use more energy. Sure. Does the saving really add up with LED’s? Depend on where you live. If your heater runs for more than 6 months out of the year then the halides heating of the water actually offsets your heating costs. In WI I can say with confidence that halides are the best way to go. But remember that is because I live in a cold state. If I was in Florida I would be running all T-5/LED hybrids.

 

[JCOLE]

The reason that metal halides have such a distinct look is because they have very narrow bands of spectrum, especially blue. I will again post the link to spectrum tests of various reef metal halides and you can see for yourself. Reef metal halides are polar opposites of full spectrum. Only lasers emit narrower peak wavelengths.

Spectral Analysis of Metal Halide Lamps: AquaMaxx 14000K Series

This article presents a review of the spectral analysis and light output of these lamps when used with a wide variety of ballasts.

reefs.com

Local reef store has a large SPS tank lit with 3x400watt halides....pretty sure they are 14k Radiums. Tank looks great.They also have massive, 24" pendants so the coverage is much better than any over priced Radion could hope for, and the Halides likely cost less.

The main complaint with LED fixtures vs MH, and the OP mentions this is LED fixtures tend to look 'hazy' and indistinct colors with too much purple blue. Well, no #$%^. Royal Blue LEDs have a wider wavelength band than halides, and to make matters worse everybody is cramming those stupid violet LEDs in their lights because a couple of guys wearing baseball caps at BRS claim it's required.

The result is that purple / blue haze every complains about with LED lights making colors look greyish blue. Then you pop on a quality halide and everybody goes "wow....look at those colors." The problem is that many LED fixture have too long a blue spectrum starting at violet which muddes colors. But that's what you guys want, right?

Tell you what...take that same metal halide and cram a bunch of 400-440nm LEDs in it and watch it stink as well. Cheap, generic halide bulbs have this problem. So, the reefing community needs to take some ritalin or something because you have can't have a straw horse with two heads. I've built LED fixtures that look just like halides and all it takes is the proper balance of 450-500 LEDs...but reefers don't want that. You want more 400-450nm...so you can complain how muddy LEDs look I guess.

Also, not sure why the OP is changing LEDs so often. Even my 5 year old black boxes are over 90% PAR and my custom rigs are rated at 100k hours.

I haven't changed Diodes yet. I changed the original diodes a couple months ago. Actually took some of your recommendations that we discussed when I changed them. Everything looks good and is still going strong. Wasn't planning on changing them until a year or so if needed.

Around Oct/Nov is when I will have some extra reefing cash to spend and looking to put them in lights. Just looking to go back to the roots of when I first started.

 

[Bpb]

Hi I run MH and T5 and I used to run a LED tank only. I have a par meter. All get 180 par for 11 hrs with a 6hr peak of 500-600 par. I have found my favorite set up is either T-5 (ati 8 bulb fixture only) with two Orphek OR3’s LED light bars on each side or Metal halides (10k) with the same OR3’s on the sides. I had the three tanks set up on the same system (multiple tanks on my system). As close to similar fish and circulation. I will say that the results were pretty conclusive. MH, T-5, then LED for growth. LED too the cake on color tho. The growth was so much better I pulled my LED’s on the LED only tank and went T5 and OR3’s. Those corals took off. Do halides use more energy. Sure. Does the saving really add up with LED’s? Depend on where you live. If your heater runs for more than 6 months out of the year then the halides heating of the water actually offsets your heating costs. In WI I can say with confidence that halides are the best way to go. But remember that is because I live in a cold state. If I was in Florida I would be running all T-5/LED hybrids.

Agree. I think location has a ton to do with it. For years I maintained metal halides were the most economical choice for me. And they were. If I lived in a cold climate where the house was kept under 70 degrees just through ambient air temps and not running am AC like a thoroughbred, id have stayed with them. They were simple, effective, and looked good.

It just seems to keep getting hotter and hotter every year here and now 100-110 actual temps for most the day seem to be the norm. Humidity inside my house was regularly Becoming higher than outside, sometimes getting up in the 80% range. I just can’t handle that. Mildew growing in every window, rust all over all my air vents. Evaporative cooling kept tank temps in the low 80’s, but many days I had to just turn my lights off entirely when the tank would hit 84-85 degrees. Tank centrally located in a living room. Running a chiller just isnt doable. It was with much reluctance I changed to leds. Still haven’t sold my MH gear yet, But I likely will. Situation became less about “what is the most affordable option” to “get the humidity inside the house down immediately” so I had to bite the bullet. Peak humidity inside is now in the low 50’s as opposed to mid 80’s

 

[JCOLE]

Hi I run MH and T5 and I used to run a LED tank only. I have a par meter. All get 180 par for 11 hrs with a 6hr peak of 500-600 par. I have found my favorite set up is either T-5 (ati 8 bulb fixture only) with two Orphek OR3’s LED light bars on each side or Metal halides (10k) with the same OR3’s on the sides. I had the three tanks set up on the same system (multiple tanks on my system). As close to similar fish and circulation. I will say that the results were pretty conclusive. MH, T-5, then LED for growth. LED too the cake on color tho. The growth was so much better I pulled my LED’s on the LED only tank and went T5 and OR3’s. Those corals took off. Do halides use more energy. Sure. Does the saving really add up with LED’s? Depend on where you live. If your heater runs for more than 6 months out of the year then the halides heating of the water actually offsets your heating costs. In WI I can say with confidence that halides are the best way to go. But remember that is because I live in a cold state. If I was in Florida I would be running all T-5/LED hybrids.

I live in NC and it does see its share of high temps during the summer. The ATI 8 bulb with supplemental LED does make the most since to me and I always have it in my cart ready to pull the trigger.

 

[JCOLE]

Find Farmer Ty’s thread. He went from led to t5 on his display tank

Uh oh. Going to have to chime in @FarmerTy on this discussion.

How do you like the T5's and what depth is your tank again?

 

[Dana Riddle]

There's a question about manual smoothing spectrometer scans of LEDs. Yes, there is some smoothing but it has to do more with the spectrometer, associated software and signal noise. I usually tell the spec to scan every 3 to 100 milliseconds, and the spectral power distribution (SPD) chart will have hundreds, perhaps thousands, of small spikes. Software engineers recognized this and wrote some fixes - one is number of scans to average (I generally set this at 5); the other is boxcar - this averages a given number of points. If I set boxcar at 5 (which usually do), the software will average 5 nanometers either side of any given point. Averaging and boxcar takes most of the noise out of the signal and results in a nice smooth bell curve when looking at LEDs. Of course the same thing is observed with metal halides - manual smoothing reduces the spectral spikes slightly but gives a better idea if the spike is real or due to signal noise. I've never seen a SPD in literature where there wasn't at least some smoothing.
As for the comments on violet light in general and LEDs in particular, those with spectral peaks at 400, 420, 450 nm (and perhaps others), generate most of their radiation in the violet portion of the spectrum. There is some violet in a 470nm LED but much more blue.

 

[Lousybreed]

I live in NC and it does see its share of high temps during the summer. The ATI 8 bulb with supplemental LED does make the most since to me and I always have it in my cart ready to pull the trigger.

I would go T5. I would go 2 actinics, 3 blue plus, and 3 aquablue specials. Great spectrum guy! Especially considering OR3 blue plus LED light bars!

 

[JCOLE]

I would go T5. I would go 2 actinics, 3 blue plus, and 3 aquablue specials. Great spectrum guy! Especially considering OR3 blue plus LED light bars!

Do you run the OR3 for the full light cycle?

 

[Reef Dude]

Just use them all like me! Can you tell that I was a little indecisive lol? But seriously, after starting with halides 12 years ago then going to t5 and then to led’s, I decided to combine them all a few years back. I gotta say though, some of the best tanks I’ve seen in person lately have been led and t5 combos.

 

[Lousybreed]

Do you run the OR3 for the full light cycle?

Yes. First on: OR3’s and actinic T-5. The basic ATI fixture allow you to run 2 bulbs independent of the other 6.

 

[Lousybreed]

Just use them all like me! Can you tell that I was a little indecisive lol? But seriously, after starting with halides 12 years ago then going to t5 and then to led’s, I decided to combine them all a few years back. I gotta say though, some of the best tanks I’ve seen in person lately have been led and t5 combos.

In my DT up until recently I was running all three. I switched over to halide and led. I think the reason you see a lot of great LED and T-5 tanks is because of their popularity. Which is cool for sure!

 

[Graffiti Spot]

I liked running all three types of light but the t5 seems kinda useless to me now and I just go with halides and four or2 bars.

 

[Dana Riddle]

Just some quick comments. If you live in a cooler environment, then the heat from a MH can reduce heating costs. If a warmer environment, can you provide reliable cooling/chilling? Does purchase of new MH lamps every 6 to 12 months fit into your budget? MH lamps can produce lighting hotspots - is a PAR meter available? Do you like the caustic network (shimmer) MH lamps can create. As for fluorescent lamps, does lamp replacement fit into your budget? Does lack of shimmer bother you? Since LEDs weren't mentioned, I won't go there.

 

[Dr. Jim]

Just some quick comments. If you live in a cooler environment, then the heat from a MH can reduce heating costs. If a warmer environment, can you provide reliable cooling/chilling? Does purchase of new MH lamps every 6 to 12 months fit into your budget? MH lamps can produce lighting hotspots - is a PAR meter available? Do you like the caustic network (shimmer) MH lamps can create. As for fluorescent lamps, does lamp replacement fit into your budget? Does lack of shimmer bother you? Since LEDs weren't mentioned, I won't go there.

Dana, regarding LED's, you wrote, "....I won't go there," but I wish you would!

After using halides for 20+ years, I would love to be happy with LED's. 7 months ago I set up a new cube (170L) with two G5 XR15's and 30+ SPS frags as an experiment to see if I could make myself like LED's. After 3 months, I was not getting any growth and felt like I was struggling to just keep them alive, which led me to replace the XR15's with a halide/T5 hybrid.
I know I didn't give the XR15's a fair chance because there were so many negative variables: new tank, small tank, 70% artificial rock, first time with LED's and a tin problem so I went back to the halides to eliminate the LED "learning curve" variable. But I am curious to what your experience has been with LED's vs halides in regard to growth rate and coloration (and ignoring cost factors).
I do plan to go back to my XR15's some day, after I have a more "established" tank, or after my house sells and I move and set up my "dream" SPS system.

Thanks for helping!