Help with my sad toadstool please

TikiBird · Nov 16, 2017

I got this toadstool leather coral six weeks ago. He has been doing well I think. Before today he’s been looking like this:

Until today when he looks like this [emoji15]:

Here are the parameters:

Temp: 78
Salinity: 1.025
pH: 8.1
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 40!
Calcium: 420
Phosphate: 0
dKH: 9 / KH: 161.1

BioCube 29 running for 14 months

Inhabitants:
2 ocellaris clownfish, one cleaner shrimp, several various snails, toadstool coral, green star polyps, and mushrooms. FWIW the other inhabitants all seem normal (except my mushrooms which have been smaller than they were since I adjusted my flow).

It is strange for my tank to have any nitrate, so 40 was very weird to see. I have been feeding my clowns more to try and fatten them up lately—could that be causing the high nitrate?

Is the nitrate what’s upsetting my toadstool? I’ve read that toadstools shed and grow but it doesn’t look like pics of that to me. [emoji15]

I’m going to do a partial water change tonight. Thoughts for how else I can help?

Edit to add: I just adjusted the powerhead so it points more toward the toadstool than my mushrooms. I read sometimes toadstools like more flow?

aKlevans · Nov 16, 2017

It could be that it is shedding its skin. More flow would help with that.

Mr. Bill · Nov 16, 2017

aKlevans said:
It could be that it is shedding its skin. More flow would help with that.

Agreed. IMOPE, Toadstools as well as many other leather and tree corals like more flow than what is generally recommended. Mine do best at 45x.

I'd work on getting your nitrate level down, as well. While most soft corals like a little more nitrate than sps, 40 is a bit high. I'd try to keep it around 5 - 10.

LobsterOfJustice · Nov 16, 2017

It’s normal for leathers to close up for a few days at a time. I️ wouldn’t worry and start messing with things until it looks upset for over a week or starts deteriorating.

TikiBird · Nov 16, 2017

@aKlevans, thank you. I’ve read they do that, but I didn’t see the mucus stuff on it, at least not yet.

@LobsterOfJustice, I will definitely be keeping a close eye on it!

TikiBird · Nov 16, 2017

Mr. Bill said:
Agreed. IMOPE, Toadstools as well as many other leather and tree corals like more flow than what is generally recommended. Mine do best at 45x.

I'd work on getting your nitrate level down, as well. While most soft corals like a little more nitrate than sps, 40 is a bit high. I'd try to keep it around 5 - 10.

Thanks @Mr Bill! Hopefully it’ll be happier now with more flow at it. I am just about to do a partial water change and maybe another tomorrow to bring the nitrates down too.

I don’t understand it, though! It’s always zero. Are the nitrates high just because I’ve been feeding more, do you think?

DeepBlueSomething · Nov 16, 2017

TikiBird said:
I don’t understand it, though! It’s always zero. Are the nitrates high just because I’ve been feeding more, do you think?

That can absolutely do it...have you also changed food or just quantity?

TikiBird · Nov 17, 2017

DeepBlueSomething said:
That can absolutely do it...have you also changed food or just quantity?

I’ve mostly been feeding their usual mini pellets, just more often, BUT now that you mention it...I did add a new food to the rotation: the Ultra Marine soft clownfish pellets. And my clowns don’t seem to like them very much, because the pellets sink quickly. The clowns won’t eat them once they sink more than a couple of inches from the surface! So some do fall on the sand. Dang.

saltyfilmfolks · Nov 17, 2017

It's a toad stool. A leather coral. The grumpiest coral on the planet

Don't look directly at it. Walk softly near the tank. Always address it as your majesty. (Don't let the cat hear you ). And yes a jiggle with the flow a bit. and try various musical style interludes

They can pout for weeks. If you don't see change in five days juggle the flow again. Danger signs are Look for crusty bits like soggy bread coming off or like dry stale bread drying up on the flesh.

Susan Edwards · Nov 17, 2017

Mine does that occassionally. And yes, they like flow. I have 2.5 of them and both are high in the flow. I also have cronic high nitrates 20-40 and it doesn't seem to bother them. The newest one, added end of september, took a while to open and expand. Each day it stretches out a bit more. Today, the ends started to open so high nitrates doesn't seem to bother it as it has only gotten better. My white tipped occassionally pouts for a day or two. Or three... Or decides to only open at night for a while before greeting the "sun" again.

Mr. Bill · Nov 17, 2017

Susan Edwards said:
Mine does that occassionally. And yes, they like flow. I have 2.5 of them and both are high in the flow. I also have cronic high nitrates 20-40 and it doesn't seem to bother them. The newest one, added end of september, took a while to open and expand. Each day it stretches out a bit more. Today, the ends started to open so high nitrates doesn't seem to bother it as it has only gotten better. My white tipped occassionally pouts for a day or two. Or three... Or decides to only open at night for a while before greeting the "sun" again.

Personally, I could never suggest that a nitrate level of 40ppm is ok and keep a clear conscience. While certain specimens may appear to adapt to higher nitrate, I've seen no evidence that it won't cause long-term health issues or early demise. At the very least, it leaves no headroom for a sudden spike, like in the event your skimmer or carbon reactor dies. JM2C

Mr. Bill · Nov 17, 2017

LobsterOfJustice said:
It’s normal for leathers to close up for a few days at a time. I️ wouldn’t worry and start messing with things until it looks upset for over a week or starts deteriorating.

saltyfilmfolks said:
It's a toad stool. A leather coral. The grumpiest coral on the planet

Don't look directly at it. Walk softly near the tank. Always address it as your majesty. (Don't let the cat hear you ). And yes a jiggle with the flow a bit. and try various musical style interludes

They can pout for weeks. If you don't see change in five days juggle the flow again. Danger signs are Look for crusty bits like soggy bread coming off or like dry stale bread drying up on the flesh.

LOL!

While I contend that Nitrate should be lowered and flow increased, I have to agree that you'll need to give it A LOT of time. IMOPE, Toadstools respond V-E-R-Y S-L-O-W-L-Y, but constantly changing one's environment can keep it closed til the world ends. Mine took over a month to open when I first got it, but grew like a weed once it did.

drtrash · Nov 17, 2017

My deepwater japanese can close up for weeks, then pop open like a flower have to figured the reset button yet

saltyfilmfolks · Nov 17, 2017

Mr. Bill said:
LOL!

While I contend that Nitrate should be lowered and flow increased, I have to agree that you'll need to give it A LOT of time. IMOPE, Toadstools respond V-E-R-Y S-L-O-W-L-Y, but constantly changing one's environment can keep it closed til the world ends. Mine took over a month to open when I first got it, but grew like a weed once it did.

Should I test my nitrates then? They were really high this spring.

jd371 · Nov 17, 2017

Mine has been looking like this for about a month now and recently my Tyree started doing the same. It will spread out but won't swell or get any PE and then get droopy and repeat. Past couple of days though there has been a little PE so hopefully they are coming around. All other corals are doing fine.

Sea MunnKey · Nov 17, 2017

Flow and don't mind them ... it's all good

Sea MunnKey · Nov 17, 2017

Flow and don't mind them ... it's all good. As long as you don't see any evidence of 'rotting" or black patches on them.

Mr. Bill · Nov 17, 2017

saltyfilmfolks said:
Should I test my nitrates then? They were really high this spring.

"Nitrogen takes many forms in the ocean,1 one of which is nitrate. Other forms include dinitrogen (N2), ammonia (NH3/NH4+), nitrite (NO2-), and a myriad of nitrogen-containing organic compounds. Of the inorganic species, nitrate is often, but not always the highest in concentration. Concentrations in the ocean vary considerably from location to location, and also with depth. Surface waters are much lower in concentration due to scavenging by various organisms, and are often less than 0.1 ppm nitrate (not that all concentrations in this article are in ppm nitrate ion, and not in ppm nitrate nitrogen). Deeper waters typically range from 0.5 to 2.5 ppm nitrate. Surface regions where upwelling of deeper water takes place will also have these higher values.

The bottom line for many aquarists is that they have nitrate levels in their aquaria that are higher than they prefer. I strive to keep the nitrate levels in my aquaria below 1 ppm, and preferably undetectable with current hobby kits (less than about 0.5 ppm). If the ability of the kits to measure lower nitrate levels is enhanced, then I might move my target levels down. Obviously, the higher the nitrate is, the greater the concern."

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/8/chemistry

saltyfilmfolks · Nov 17, 2017

Mr. Bill said:
"Nitrogen takes many forms in the ocean,1 one of which is nitrate. Other forms include dinitrogen (N2), ammonia (NH3/NH4+), nitrite (NO2-), and a myriad of nitrogen-containing organic compounds. Of the inorganic species, nitrate is often, but not always the highest in concentration. Concentrations in the ocean vary considerably from location to location, and also with depth. Surface waters are much lower in concentration due to scavenging by various organisms, and are often less than 0.1 ppm nitrate (not that all concentrations in this article are in ppm nitrate ion, and not in ppm nitrate nitrogen). Deeper waters typically range from 0.5 to 2.5 ppm nitrate. Surface regions where upwelling of deeper water takes place will also have these higher values.

The bottom line for many aquarists is that they have nitrate levels in their aquaria that are higher than they prefer. I strive to keep the nitrate levels in my aquaria below 1 ppm, and preferably undetectable with current hobby kits (less than about 0.5 ppm). If the ability of the kits to measure lower nitrate levels is enhanced, then I might move my target levels down. Obviously, the higher the nitrate is, the greater the concern."

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/8/chemistry

Me too. I do water changes and just look at the tank.
It's pretty easy.

Susan Edwards · Nov 17, 2017

Mr. Bill said:
Personally, I could never suggest that a nitrate level of 40ppm is ok and keep a clear conscience. While certain specimens may appear to adapt to higher nitrate, I've seen no evidence that it won't cause long-term health issues or early demise. At the very least, it leaves no headroom for a sudden spike, like in the event your skimmer or carbon reactor dies. JM2C

I agree that high nitrates are not okay or normal although there are tanks out there that have higher (160 on some I read) that are absolutely beautiful and the tank owners don't seem concerned about it. I've been trying to get mine down almost since the beginning. Even fishless, it was high. My point was that it most likely wasn't her nitrates that were an issue with the toadstool. I do WC's, tried nopox etc. and about the lowest I get them is 20. I don't run a carbon reactor and when I used fluconazle and had the skimmer off for 9 days, everything hummed along merrily. Even my acros don't object. My phos bottoms out to where I have to dose but the nitrates remain between 20-40. I am now rinsing all frozen to see if that improves it.