Help With Overflow Noise

[widarecu]

So my case is a bit complex (I think), I decided to move to Triton method for multiple reasons ... and love having a big refugium as well.

I have a Redsea Reefer XXL 750 but with the original plumbing I wasn’t able to push more than 500GPH with my Vectra L1 so I decided to bypass the original plumbing and now I can push 1500GPH but my problem is now the overflow, it can’t handle it.

This is how it looks, uses a Herbie type overflow with 1 inch plumbing (of course that’s why it can’t handle it):

This is how the down pipes look like, they go all the way down where it connects the rest of the sump plumbing:

So after I bypassed the original returt plumbing I’m using the down pipe (3/4 inch) as a third line for overflow, technically working as a Bean Animal having the right pipe as the main line, the middle pipe which is quite high as the secondary line and then the left pipe (old return) as the emergency line.

Everything works fine until I restart the return pump, when that happens the secondary line is not capable to form a syphon quick enough and then the whole tank overflows so I had to reduce the pump’s power to about 60% which gives enough time for the syphon to kick off but now it’s extremely noisy (the secondary line).

Any ideas not involving cutting the original plumbing? Also if I was to cut short the middle down pipe I’d have to empty the overflow box and I’m not sure if that can handle the full tank’s water pressure

 

[AllSignsPointToFish]

So, I don't have any experience with a Bean Animal overflow setup, but I have found a way to silence my noisy Herbie overflows in my tank. I tried the method using two elbows to make a 180° bend with a small vent hole and valve to throttle air. That didn't really seem to quiet the noise all that much.

I surmised that the issue with the noisy overflow was the way that the water was entering the drain line, so I improvised a device out of a PVC coupling and a suction screen.

1" FIT Suction Screen from Lifeguard Aquatics. You will need to buy the same size as your drain line (mine was a 1" drain line).

PVC coupler in the same size as the drain line. This is a threaded by slip fit coupler because Lowe's didn't have any slip by slip fit couplers.

Press the suction screen into the slip fit coupler. I did not use any glue so that I can disassemble the apparatus for cleaning. I also had to trim the coupler height on my miter saw for the correct height in the overflow box. In my case, I was able to cut right at the interior part where the threads met the slip on fitting.

With the threaded portion gone, you can just slip the whole device over the end of the drain line. I believe the reason it works is that the was has enter from four different directions, forming a falling film arrangement that allows for a self-venting flow regime that is quieter. The nice part is that if the suction screen gets dirty and requires cleaning, the drain pipe gets noisy again indicating that the flow pattern is being interrupted. Just pull the fitting off of the end of the drain line and clean it in the sink

Here is a bad pic of it installed in my overflow:

Here is a video of the overflow during normal operation:

Hope this helps you!

 

[widarecu]

So, I don't have any experience with a Bean Animal overflow setup, but I have found a way to silence my noisy Herbie overflows in my tank. I tried the method using two elbows to make a 180° bend with a small vent hole and valve to throttle air. That didn't really seem to quiet the noise all that much.

I surmised that the issue with the noisy overflow was the way that the water was entering the drain line, so I improvised a device out of a PVC coupling and a suction screen.

1" FIT Suction Screen from Lifeguard Aquatics. You will need to buy the same size as your drain line (mine was a 1" drain line).

PVC coupler in the same size as the drain line. This is a threaded by slip fit coupler because Lowe's didn't have any slip by slip fit couplers.

Press the suction screen into the slip fit coupler. I did not use any glue so that I can disassemble the apparatus for cleaning. I also had to trim the coupler height on my miter saw for the correct height in the overflow box. In my case, I was able to cut right at the interior part where the threads met the slip on fitting.

With the threaded portion gone, you can just slip the whole device over the end of the drain line. I believe the reason it works is that the was has enter from four different directions, forming a falling film arrangement that allows for a self-venting flow regime that is quieter. The nice part is that if the suction screen gets dirty and requires cleaning, the drain pipe gets noisy again indicating that the flow pattern is being interrupted. Just pull the fitting off of the end of the drain line and clean it in the sink

Here is a bad pic of it installed in my overflow:

Here is a video of the overflow during normal operation:

Hope this helps you!

Pretty nice approach, I think I may use something like that in my next build, the problem I have now is that the original pipe is a bit too high in the water column so it can’t manage to get enough water pressure to build a syphon

I don't want to cut the original pipe as the couplings are special for RedSea so if I mess up I’d be in big trouble :/

 

[ca1ore]

This picture was when you ran it as a herbie? Center was the siphon and the right (large dimeter top) was the emergency? I see no way to get this to work properly without dropping the main siphon well down in the box. I know that is not the answer you are looking for, but that's really the only way to get enough head pressure to build over the mouth of the siphon to move 1,500 gallons quietly. Even then, a 3/4" primary siphon may not be big enough.

 

[widarecu]

This picture was when you ran it as a herbie? Center was the siphon and the right (large dimeter top) was the emergency? I see no way to get this to work properly without dropping the main siphon well down in the box. I know that is not the answer you are looking for, but that's really the only way to get enough head pressure to build over the mouth of the siphon to move 1,500 gallons quietly. Even then, a 3/4" primary siphon may not be big enough.

That photo was from an smaller tank but similar concept, here a small video of how mine is running today, right the main drain (1 inch), middle the secondary (1 inch as well) and the left one is the emergency (3/4 inch). And I’m afraid you are right I think the only way is to lower the height for the middle one so it can form the siphon :/

 

[widarecu]

In case the video doesn’t work, here a photo:

 

[lmm1967]

if it's noisy and not flowing the pipes rated GPH then you are not getting a full siphon on your primary drain.

Do you have a gate valve on the primary drain? Without it - you are going to be fighting this scenario until you put one in.

You also really should lower the top of the primary drain so it is low enough to not suck in any air during normal operation. A full siphon on a 1" return flows a good amount of water and on my tanks needs to be at least 3" below the top of the water in the overflow - if not it creates a whirlpool, sucks in air and gets noisy and lowers the flow.

You don't have any horizontal runs in your drain lines - do you? That will cause this as well since air pockets are able to get trapped in horizontal runs which effectively prevents a full siphon.

 

[foxt]

Video doesn’t work on my iPad. Are the two pipes on the left at the same height?

 

[Water Dog]

Without modifying the lengths of the pipes in the overflow, you will not be able to tune the overflow to run quietly. I’m on an iPad too, so I can’t see the video, but from your above picture it looks like water is going into all three drains. In order to set up a proper Beananimal given what you have, you need to significantly lower the primary drain (right), cut the secondary drain (middle) to set the water level in the overflow box to minimize the waterfall effect from the weir (maybe a 1 to 1-1/2 inch drop in water level from the DT to the overflow box), then set the emergency (left) to a height were it stays dry (until flow is stopped in the other two grains.

Turn your return pump down to 1/2 strength. Once that is done, use the primary drain gate valve to purge all the air out off the drain. On the secondary, there should just be a slight trickle of water going in there. The emergency should stay dry. Once tuned to run silent, you can slowly bump up the speed of your return pump and adjust the gate valve, opening it a little more to accommodate the increased flow from the pump to quiet it down again. Continue doing this until you hit the highest flow rate on your pump while keeping the overflow quiet.

Again, unless to modify the piping inside of the overflow box, I don’t see how you will be able to tune the overflow to run silently.

c

 

[widarecu]

if it's noisy and not flowing the pipes rated GPH then you are not getting a full siphon on your primary drain.

Do you have a gate valve on the primary drain? Without it - you are going to be fighting this scenario until you put one in.

You also really should lower the top of the primary drain so it is low enough to not suck in any air during normal operation. A full siphon on a 1" return flows a good amount of water and on my tanks needs to be at least 3" below the top of the water in the overflow - if not it creates a whirlpool, sucks in air and gets noisy and lowers the flow.

You don't have any horizontal runs in your drain lines - do you? That will cause this as well since air pockets are able to get trapped in horizontal runs which effectively prevents a full siphon.

Yes I have a gate valve in the primary drain but it’s fully open as I’m pushing water harder than one single 1” return can handle. The main drain is also lower than all the other drains it’s just hard to see in the photo but you can see better here in this diagram from the manual, the big pipe sitting on top of the drain is not sealed and allows all the water to come from underneath:

I think my problem are the horizontal runs that are blocking the air and avoiding the syphon to form as the secondary drain is not low enough.

 

[widarecu]

Video doesn’t work on my iPad. Are the two pipes on the left at the same height?

The ones on the left almost at the same height, have a look to the diagram that I posted just before, you can see the differences clearly there.

 

[widarecu]

Without modifying the lengths of the pipes in the overflow, you will not be able to tune the overflow to run quietly. I’m on an iPad too, so I can’t see the video, but from your above picture it looks like water is going into all three drains. In order to set up a proper Beananimal given what you have, you need to significantly lower the primary drain (right), cut the secondary drain (middle) to set the water level in the overflow box to minimize the waterfall effect from the weir (maybe a 1 to 1-1/2 inch drop in water level from the DT to the overflow box), then set the emergency (left) to a height were it stays dry (until flow is stopped in the other two grains.

Turn your return pump down to 1/2 strength. Once that is done, use the primary drain gate valve to purge all the air out off the drain. On the secondary, there should just be a slight trickle of water going in there. The emergency should stay dry. Once tuned to run silent, you can slowly bump up the speed of your return pump and adjust the gate valve, opening it a little more to accommodate the increased flow from the pump to quiet it down again. Continue doing this until you hit the highest flow rate on your pump while keeping the overflow quiet.

Again, unless to modify the piping inside of the overflow box, I don’t see how you will be able to tune the overflow to run silently.

c

Agree I think the problem is the length of the secondary drain but I also think the horizontal runs down in the sump are also preventing the full syphon to form quick enough before the tank overflows.

 

[lmm1967]

I would eliminate horizontal runs - use 45 degree elbows and let the drains angle down if you can rather than having horizontal runs. This is what I do - but I use DIY sumps so I'm not tied into specific locations for the drain lines.

Be sure the end of the drains are at least 1" - preferably 2" - under water in the sump when the return pump is running.

Alter the pump until - under a full siphon - the primary drain can handle the flow by itself - then close the gate valve little by little until you have a trickle flowing down the secondary and the emergency dry. If you don't run this way you are at risk for overflowing the tank - experience shows this will happen while you are away or in the middle of the night

That is as quiet as you are going to get and that is the max flow I would run. If you really need more flow through your sump - you need larger drains.

 

[widarecu]

I would eliminate horizontal runs - use 45 degree elbows and let the drains angle down if you can rather than having horizontal runs. This is what I do - but I use DIY sumps so I'm not tied into specific locations for the drain lines.

Be sure the end of the drains are at least 1" - preferably 2" - under water in the sump when the return pump is running.

Alter the pump until - under a full siphon - the primary drain can handle the flow by itself - then close the gate valve little by little until you have a trickle flowing down the secondary and the emergency dry. If you don't run this way you are at risk for overflowing the tank - experience shows this will happen while you are away or in the middle of the night

That is as quiet as you are going to get and that is the max flow I would run. If you really need more flow through your sump - you need larger drains.

Thanks mate for the detailed explanation, one question though, any rational behind the 1” - 2” under water mark more than to avoid spills? All my 3 drains are about 10” underwater.

I’m considering a way to replace the original plumbing from the drains into the sump but I need to figure out a way so it all fits together (that area is pretty busy already, considering using vinyl tubing instead ...

 

[Water Dog]

I keep my primary drain 1” under the sump‘s water level as it makes purging air out of the primary line much easier. At 10”, that’s a lot of back pressure for the air to overcome, thus trapping the air in the primary line plumbing and making it noisy.

 

[foxt]

I keep my primary drain 1” under the sump‘s water level as it makes purging air out of the primary line much easier. At 10”, that’s a lot of back pressure for the air to overcome, thus trapping the air in the primary line plumbing and making it noisy.

This! If your primary drain is 10" under water, try shortening it to 1" under. This could be the reason your siphon takes too long to get started.

 

[foxt]

Agree I think the problem is the length of the secondary drain but I also think the horizontal runs down in the sump are also preventing the full syphon to form quick enough before the tank overflows.

From the diagrams, it looks like the drain that used to be the return line is lower than the drain you are using as secondary, but it also looks like all three are under water when the system is running. Is that correct?

 

[lmm1967]

Coulple others responded above too - 10" is way to much - it's too hard to clear out all the air in the line.

Biggest thing and easiest way to think about it all is......

is there anywhere for air to get trapped in the drain lines? if so - fix that first. You basically want zero air in your primary drain line or you are not acheiving a siphon. No siphon means noise and very much reduced flow.

 

[Water Dog]

After reading this over a few times as it’s getting a bit confusing for me, I’d like to make a few observations.

Based on the diagrams you posted, specifically figure #27, in looking at the overflow box plumbing heights, it looks like what used to be the return plumbing should actually be the secondary line as it sits lower in the overflow box than the pipe in the middle. If in fact the pipe in the middle is the tallest in the overflow box, theb it should act as the emergency drain. So you should tune your gate valve so that you just get a trickle in that lower pipe (the former return line) and the middle pipe should remain dry.

As for the primary, I know you mentioned earlier that the large coupling over the primary is unsealed and not watertight where it sits on the primary plumbing line, but I would suggest that you remove that wide coupling altogether. Because of its width and height relative to the other pipes in the overflow box, all it’s doing slowing down the action to form the full siphon. In my set up, the primary line is significantly lower than the secondary to aid in the quick formation of a fully purged primary. In my opinion, this can be achieved in your set up by removing that wide coupling, that currently sits on the primary pipe.

Then finally, as mentioned above , trim the primary pipe, where it enters the sump so that the outlet is only 1” beneath the surface. This will allow air to purge much easier.

 

[widarecu]

From the diagrams, it looks like the drain that used to be the return line is lower than the drain you are using as secondary, but it also looks like all three are under water when the system is running. Is that correct?

Yes exactly all three under water :/