Help with QT/Hospital tank

Shallow Planet · Jul 6, 2017

So I have a pretty bad outbreak of ich mixed with either some bacterial or fungal infection on all my damsels. The rest of the fish seem fine for now. I have been waiting for my QT setup to fully cycle before pulling all fish and going fallow, but I dont think the damsels are gonna make it that long. I have already lost 2 of the 5 I had. 1 of the 3 remaining has a big open soar on his left (same as what started on the 2 that died), 1 has a small amount of scales now missing, and the other one just has a hazzy ruffed up look to his side. They all have this along with ich.

My question is what is the best approach to treat them asap with no cycled tank? I was thinking of throwing up a quick hospital tank and just doing daily water changes, but how do I manage this while also treating medication? I know with copper I just add it to the new water, but when treating with antibiotics most of them recommend doing water changes after a couple days and then dosing again. Any suggestions on the best approach to this would be appreciated.

Thanks!

JaimeAdams · Jul 6, 2017

Are you sure it is ich and not velvet? What you are describing sounds more like velvet. Pictures would sure help, but either way I would act quickly and stick them in a fresh hospital tank ASAP. As far as antibiotics you should ask @melypr1985 or @Humblefish or the rest of #reefsquad or just read through the stickies. I know for sure that there is a thread in the fish disease forum right now talking about medication interactions

Shallow Planet · Jul 6, 2017

My current plan is to dump some bacteria into a 20g tank filled with display water. Throw a filter and heater in there and start treating. I have all the meds needed, but am concerned with water quality on an uncycled tank. Since its a combination of ich, bad bacteria/fungal infection which do I treat first? Most say to do daily water changes, but how do I do antibiotics when they last 48 hours in the water. Do water changes every 2 days before next treatment? I have Kenoplex, Metroplex, Coppersafe, and Prazipro I plan on using all at some point.

Humblefish · Jul 6, 2017

Are these chromis damsels? And do they have sores on them like what you see below?

Shallow Planet · Jul 6, 2017

Starcki Damsels. Here are a couple pics. One is after it cot really bad on the one that died. The small sore is how the others are starting.

Humblefish · Jul 6, 2017

That's uronema: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/uronema-marinum.247940/

Chromis seem to be most susceptible, but other damsels/clowns can get it as well.

Shallow Planet · Jul 6, 2017

So treat with Metroplex? How do I go about this with water changes?

Also its mentioned that this can not be eradicated from display and damsel cannot go back in to the display ever? Or is there some way I can treat my display to get rid of it?

Fr4nkthet4nk · Jul 6, 2017

Quarantine now!

Shallow Planet · Jul 6, 2017

Yeah I plan on QT tonight. Just not sure what to do about display now...

Humblefish · Jul 6, 2017

Shallow Planet said:
So treat with Metroplex? How do I go about this with water changes?

I would treat with copper (for 30 days) + metro (for 14 days) to cover all 4 external parasites: Ich, velvet, brook, uronema.

You are also going to need an antibiotic (or two) to treat the inevitable secondary infection that's coming: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/antibiotics.283711/

Shallow Planet said:
Also its mentioned that this can not be eradicated from display and damsel cannot go back in to the display ever? Or is there some way I can treat my display to get rid of it?

Unfortunately, uronema is a “free living” parasite which does not require a fish host. So, going fallow will not eradicate it. Most fish seem protected from it via their natural immune system; but for some reason, chromis and some other fish are not always afforded this protection. Once a tank has Uronema, it must be assumed that the disease can survive in there almost indefinitely.

So, if I were in your shoes I would just never add damsels to that system ever again. Even clownfish might be a problem. Unless you are prepared to completely break the DT down and start all over.

Shallow Planet · Jul 6, 2017

@Humblefish I currently have a couple clowns in the display right now. Is it possible this is anything else? I should mention I have been battling this for like 3 weeks. Thought it was just wounds caused my scraping ich off. But the wounds just increase in size over time. The one has a large patch of missing scales but its just pale/grey in color. No red. They all start off with no red and then the red developes. I assumed that might just be due to infection. BUT if this is in fact uronema i will act accordingly.

Thanks for all the info so far!

Shallow Planet · Jul 6, 2017

Here is what the first casualty looked like. It turned red after a few days. He lasted about 2 weeks before finally dying.

Humblefish · Jul 6, 2017

@Shallow Planet It's possibly that it is just a bacterial infection: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/bacterial-infections.191511/

3 weeks would also support it being an infection, as uronema typically kills faster than that. But it sure does look like uronema to me.

If you have been treating with copper then it is possible that was been suppressing (but not eradicating) it.

@melypr1985 @ngoodermuth @aykwm for more input

Shallow Planet · Jul 6, 2017

@Humblefish Honestly I havent been treating with anything except just feeding a ton with vitamins, amino acids, and garlic. I was trying to just fight off the ich by boosting their immune systems. All other fish are clear but these guys are still struggling. I have yet to treat with any medications. My plan was to get everyone healthy with "ich management" and then move all to QT tank. Thought this would reduce stress but it appears the damsels cannot wait for this.

aykwm · Jul 6, 2017

Im so sorry for your loss, for now I think I would try to focus on trying to treat uronema as top priority, damsels are hardy fish and can probably manage ich on their own for now, but uronema is causing them open wounds which weakens them. I advise you to do acriflavine bath (dont use formalin) for all affected fish as this will provide relief and is a possible cure. After that if you are hesitant to mix copper with antibiotics I would suggest starting antibiotics course Furan + Kana and metro for 10 days and then after that start copper. You can also mix copper and metro as both medication have probability of treating uronema. If you are worried about ammonia then you can do water change every other day and dose the meds again as mentioned on label. If there is ammonia spike you can do more water change and replace the medication, or the safer but more work intensive way is to move them to new quarantine tank with same meds dosed in the new QT.

I dont suggest performing ich management except if its really necessary, as in most cases its a disaster waiting to happen and is just being delayed.

If you want to cure ich (which copper will do) then you need to go fallow for 76 days. If you want to add more damsels, clowns, chromic, etc.. then I recommend restarting the tank as @Humblefish suggested to get rid of uronema. This process might take around 3-5 weeks, you remove everything wet from the tank and let it dry completely for minimum 24 hours (the more the better). For LR, you just have to bleach it for a week and then soak it in RODI for few days (with frequent WC) to neutralize the bleach and then you start the tank again and let it cycle and hopefully uronema will be gone along with all other parasites that were available.

Best of luck and keep us updated.

melypr1985 · Jul 6, 2017

I don't think we can rule out uronema here. IMO that is just a severe bacterial infection, but it would be irresponsible of us to say that for sure without considering uronema and advising treatment for it as well especially with this being damsels. Of course, it's totally possible for both to be in play here along with the ich that is present.

4FordFamily · Jul 6, 2017

Humblefish said:
@Shallow Planet It's possibly that it is just a bacterial infection: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/bacterial-infections.191511/

3 weeks would also support it being an infection, as uronema typically kills faster than that. But it sure does look like uronema to me. If you have been treating with copper then it is possible that was been suppressing (but not eradicating) it.

@melypr1985 @ngoodermuth @aykwm for more input

I've had definite uronema last 2 weeks before, maybe not three. Sure looks like it to me!

Humble has you covered, op. I agree on all fronts

ngoodermuth · Jul 7, 2017

I agree with the recommended treatment of copper for the ich and metroplex to address the possibility of uronema. To address the possible bacterial infection, I'd add kanaplex to start and see if it improves. If not, Furan-2 could be added as well.

It *looks* like uronema to me also, although bacterial infections can present in weird ways. But, considering only the damsels seem affected, I feel like uronema is more likely the issue here :/ I'm very sorry.

Shallow Planet · Jul 7, 2017

I was only able to catch one of the damsels last night. I was going to try and wait until I had both to treat at the same time, but didnt want the one damsel stressing and just getting worse. So i started with Furan + Kana + Metroplex this morning in the hospital tank. The damsel is really stressing and of course blew up with ich overnight. Should I do Copper after the antibiotics or begin copper now? My only concern is I leave town in 13 days and will be gone for 5 days. A little worried with trusting the house sitter with copper...
Maybe I can have all the water change and top off(with copper) ready for them in 5g buckets. The ultimate plan was to pull all fish when I get back and treat with copper and fallow or tear down display.