Herbie overflow question!

[danzig]

I am very familiar with herbie system, and gmacreef has probably the single best write up on it that exists.

See here if interested: https://gmacreef.com/herbie-overflow-reef-tank-plumbing-method-basics/

My question lies in where he says “you should not attemp to tee off the primary drain, as it could affect siphon operation”.

What if i am using a T Wye for better flow, over a tradition T and have a gate valve for the primary before it, and a gate valve after the wye also. My main drain is 1” and the wye will go to 3/4 for low flow to go to a remote refugium. Valves are shown in red, i would love to hear if anyone has any experience!

 

[Even Further]

I have a herbie drain. Both drains go directly into a small drain chamber in the sump. I used a wye fitting to split the return line. The split in the wye feeds a manifold. A valve on the manifold feeds the fuge.

 

[Mastiffsrule]

I am very familiar with herbie system, and gmacreef has probably the single best write up on it that exists.

See here if interested: https://gmacreef.com/herbie-overflow-reef-tank-plumbing-method-basics/

My question lies in where he says “you should not attemp to tee off the primary drain, as it could affect siphon operation”.

What if i am using a T Wye for better flow, over a tradition T and have a gate valve for the primary before it, and a gate valve after the wye also. My main drain is 1” and the wye will go to 3/4 for low flow to go to a remote refugium. Valves are shown in red, i would love to hear if anyone has any experience!

evening,

I think I follow. I am making a few pure guesses. First one being without something restrictive after the wye to divert flow into it, I don’t see much water going into it. Second being if you do get water into it, that will add back pressure to the siphon affecting it.

just 2 thoughts

 

[ca1ore]

Hmmmn ..... I could not get the link to work, but I think it’s probably good advice to not try to split the siphon. Adds unnecessary complexity. On my current tank, I designed the overflow box to have multiple, independent siphons to feed different things. Mostly they start up Ok .... mostly.

 

[danzig]

I have a herbie drain. Both drains go directly into a small drain chamber in the sump. I used a wye fitting to split the return line. The split in the wye feeds a manifold. A valve on the manifold feeds the fuge.

You mean you use a wye fitting to split the DRAIN line? I am not trying to tee off on the return line after my pump, i specifically am asking about doing this on a drain side.

 

[danzig]

evening,

I think I follow. I am making a few pure guesses. First one being without something restrictive after the wye to divert flow into it, I don’t see much water going into it. Second being if you do get water into it, that will add back pressure to the siphon affecting it.

just 2 thoughts

I understand what you mean. This is just a basic diagram i quickly made, i agree with that all in theory, if i didnt make hard 90 before the tee wye and did a 45 it would angle it into the wye a little instead of just wanting to shoot right down past the wye into sump. That takes care of needing back backpressure to actually get water down the wye. But like you said it creates turbulence into the main drain siphon because i do ultimately want a semi/low flow so that throttling would creat backpressure/turbulence maybe?. I hope someone comes along with a similar experience that they have tried.

 

[danzig]

bump really want some more input on this ;(

 

[Fish man]

I have a herbie. The only challenge I see with 2 valves might be getting the main siphon balanced. Once you get the first valve set so you get a trickle into the emergency overflow line and then try and set the 2nd valve to the fuge it might affect the back pressure on the main siphon line forcing more water into the emergency overflow thereby increasing the noise you're trying to get rid of. Also depends on how you plumb your return pump. It could pull faster then the siphon and drain your fuge or sump faster then it could fill. Do you have an art degree. Looks a lot like my drawing.

 

[danzig]

I have a herbie. The only challenge I see with 2 valves might be getting the main siphon balanced. Once you get the first valve set so you get a trickle into the emergency overflow line and then try and set the 2nd valve to the fuge it might affect the back pressure on the main siphon line forcing more water into the emergency overflow thereby increasing the noise you're trying to get rid of. Also depends on how you plumb your return pump. It could pull faster then the siphon and drain your fuge or sump faster then it could fill. Do you have an art degree. Looks a lot like my drawing.

Haha it is my first time using the iphone drawing feauture in notes, it works albeit my drawing is quite rudimentary. So in theory i think it will work but just need a lot more fine tuning. Like you said i think if i dial in my main drain, then make micro adjustments to the wye for refugium then back to adjust main flow as needed maybe back and forth a few times to find the sweet spot

 

[Alchameth]

For the price of the extra plumbing to do this you could just buy a small pump and use that to feed into your fuge. Added benefit, you wouldn't have to worry about possible issues with the syphon...

 

[KStatefan]

Move your valve to after the split to the fug.

 

[danzig]

For the price of the extra plumbing to do this you could just buy a small pump and use that to feed into your fuge. Added benefit, you wouldn't have to worry about possible issues with the syphon..

This isnt really the advice/input i was looking for.. the cost of the pump, operation cost, and potential for disruption if it fails is one thing im trying to avoid. I do appreciate you stopping by though

 

[danzig]

Move your valve to after the split to the fug.

Please be more specific.. are you saying put the valve as close to fuge as i can instead of close to the wye? I think this will definitely help and what i planned on even though my drawing doesnt translate that

 

[KStatefan]

In your diagram the valve for the water going to the fudge is after the wye already. Move the other valve after the wye also

 

[danzig]

In your diagram the valve for the water going to the fudge is after the wye already. Move the other valve after the wye also

Oh wow i dont know how i missed that!! Excellent suggestion!

 

[Alchameth]

This isnt really the advice/input i was looking for.. the cost of the pump, operation cost, and potential for disruption if it fails is one thing im trying to avoid. I do appreciate you stopping by though

Silly me... thought you found a good write-up on the what's and why's and not's of a Herbie overflow. What you are trying to do isn't a good idea per that nice write-up which, stated clearly, in a nice red warning box titled 'Avoiding Common Pitfalls'... yet it appears you are wanting to do 2 things that excellent write-up says not to; splitting a full syphon line and running a horizontal pipe. Doubt someone would take the time to do a write-up like that, point these potential issues out without good reason, you're praising it on one hand, and calling it into question on the other.

Reef on and best of luck to ya.

 

[danzig]

Silly me... thought you found a good write-up on the what's and why's and not's of a Herbie overflow. What you are trying to do isn't a good idea per that nice write-up which, stated clearly, in a nice red warning box titled 'Avoiding Common Pitfalls'... yet it appears you are wanting to do 2 things that excellent write-up says not to; splitting a full syphon line and running a horizontal pipe. Doubt someone would take the time to do a write-up like that, point these potential issues out without good reason, you're praising it on one hand, and calling it into question on the other.

Reef on and best of luck to ya.

Horizontal is to be avoided if over 24”, which mine is not going to be, will be using 45 angles and the drawing i did is not to scale or exact layout it was just to explain in theory what i was trying to do. Also the reason i came here for advice was because there was no explanation for why it shouldnt be done. Hence why i was asking if anyone has experience doing it. Thats the info i am looking for. I know its hard to discern emotion/intent from text but i cant help but feel like you are coming from a hostile place in your writing. I wasnt trying to be rude i was just saying thats not at all what i was asking for input on.

 

[cmaxwell39]

It is hard enough to fully balance a siphon with only one gate valve in it. Trying to balance two gate valves and balance the flow going to two different places is going to be an exercise in frustration I am afraid.

mid you are going to attempt this (as it sounds like you are simply trying to get confirmation that your idea will work) I would put a gate valve before the wye and tune that gate valve to handle the siphon. Then have a second gate valve to tune how much of the water from that full siphon goes to your fuge.

The reason for this is that if the fuge siphon gets plugged up, the siphon going to the main dump will still handle all the flow from the full siphon. There will still be a small effect on the siphon, but if there is an open line from the main gate valve (before the wye) it should be minimal.

Just realize that any change in water level, pump capacity, etc is going to require the re-tuning of two valves.

Once again, I would recommend against this design as it adds a lot of complexity and potential points of problems to a simple design that works well. I am just sharing some thoughts if you have your heart set in trying this.

 

[danzig]

It is hard enough to fully balance a siphon with only one gate valve in it. Trying to balance two gate valves and balance the flow going to two different places is going to be an exercise in frustration I am afraid.

mid you are going to attempt this (as it sounds like you are simply trying to get confirmation that your idea will work) I would put a gate valve before the wye and tune that gate valve to handle the siphon. Then have a second gate valve to tune how much of the water from that full siphon goes to your fuge.

The reason for this is that if the fuge siphon gets plugged up, the siphon going to the main dump will still handle all the flow from the full siphon. There will still be a small effect on the siphon, but if there is an open line from the main gate valve (before the wye) it should be minimal.

Just realize that any change in water level, pump capacity, etc is going to require the re-tuning of two valves.

Once again, I would recommend against this design as it adds a lot of complexity and potential points of problems to a simple design that works well. I am just sharing some thoughts if you have your heart set in trying this.

I think i am in agreement with you, my heart is not set on it. Your explanation makes perfect sense and i think it would just be unreliable and need constant adjustment.

 

[cmaxwell39]

Good luck with however you decide to set it up.