High Alk Consumption with very few corals.

[HWDylan]

So no algae, no coraline, dosing nitrate despite no obvious nutrient export other than the skimmer and what could be excessively high but balanced Alk and Calc consumption?
And, on top of that, coral don't stay alive.

It definitely seems odd... let me do some digging.

I appreciate it. This is not my first rodeo with a reef. I have done this several times before and never encountered this type of issue.

The nutrient issue was one of the fist things that made me realize something wasn't right. I have 13 fish in this tank and several of them are fairly large (Quoyi Parrot and a Naso). I feed what I would consider heavyish (auto feeder does pellets 2x a day and then I do frozen in the evening soaked in Selcon + a sheet of Nori). Yet here I am with Nitrates so low that I have to dose to make them even show up on a test kit and very little PO4 at all.

I have a huge fuge but no macro will grow (probably due to low nutrients). I have 2 bricks of the dimpled Brightwell XPORT (not the NO3 reducing ones) media in the sump, I run filter socks but I for sure do not change them often enough to cause a lack of nutrients, and I have a Large UV Sterilizer. That is about it for filtration besides the skimmer. I don't dose carbon or use GFO. I have a carbon reactor but I only put carbon in it when I feel the need to. I have a hard time believing that changing like 7 gallons a day with an auto water change is enough to make my PO4 and NO3 be so low

 

[Topreefer92]

You have a pretty awesome PH level I wish I could get mine in the 8.3 range. Keep in mind with a PH towards that level it will suck up more elements. BRS tested this in one of their videos! Dont quote me but I believe they said their was a drastic increase with ph approaching the 8.3 level in the need for dosing. As Randy mentioned in a big tank like that you have other processes in play that could be eating that up than the corals.

 

[GainesvilleReef]

My guess is that you are probably getting some precip from the auto water change and it is being taken by the skimmer so you can't see it anywhere.

My reasoning for this is that with the CO2 scrubber, your tank water is probably at a much higher ph than your new water container. Your new water container would be at equilibrium with the surrounding air. Again, it is just a guess, since I don't know your set up.

With that high a baseline consumption you might be able to dose enough kalk to get rid of the need for the CO2 Scrubber which could save some money.

 

[Brew12]

I appreciate it. This is not my first rodeo with a reef. I have done this several times before and never encountered this type of issue.

I have a huge fuge but no macro will grow (probably due to low nutrients). I have 2 bricks of the dimpled Brightwell XPORT (not the NO3 reducing ones) media in the sump,

I find this fascinating but I hope you will have some patience. I am still catching up from spending the last week in the Bahamas and am committed to playing in a charity golf tournament tomorrow. It might be Tuesday before I can really begin digging into this.

 

[HWDylan]

My guess is that you are probably getting some precip from the auto water change and it is being taken by the skimmer so you can't see it anywhere.

My reasoning for this is that with the CO2 scrubber, your tank water is probably at a much higher ph than your new water container. Your new water container would be at equilibrium with the surrounding air. Again, it is just a guess, since I don't know your set up.

With that high a baseline consumption you might be able to dose enough kalk to get rid of the need for the CO2 Scrubber which could save some money.

This is an interesting Hypothesis. I have the auto water changes turned off for right now. I have all dosing except for KNO3 turned off. I want to eliminate variables for right now. Plus I am a bit curious to see how low the DKH will go. If it is precipitation, it should level out since I will not be adding any new alkalinity.

I find this fascinating but I hope you will have some patience. I am still catching up from spending the last week in the Bahamas and am committed to playing in a charity golf tournament tomorrow. It might be Tuesday before I can really begin digging into this.

Ive been waiting since January to put corals in this tank. I can wait a bit longer to get it right.

Again, I really appreciate your time.

 

[HWDylan]

In a possibly related note:

My skimmer has always produced this extremely thick almost foamy skimmate that bubbles out of the lid constantly. I have never had a skimmer do this, but I have also never used an external skimmer either so I wasn't sure how relevant this was.

Could there be a correlation between the thick skimmate and this overall issue of tank problems and high alkalinity consumption? Bacteria possibly?

I just figured I would put forth any little tidbit that I thought possibly relevant. If not please ignore this haha.

 

[Silent]

That thing is like a bubble factory. Haven't seen that many bubbles since I gave my youngest kid a bubble bath. Pretty awesome skimmer.

 

[HWDylan]

Update: With all dosing turned off, the alkalinity has fallen to 6.4dkh today.

This is pretty much exactly 1 dkh from the measurement yesterday which is in line with the amount of alkalinity I was dosing. Not surprising but possibly interesting. It probably means that it is indeed being consumed by something rather than precipitating.

 

[pmkinsella]

Are you running GFO? I had been running too high a dose of GFO and it was causing precipitation of the equivalent of 0.5-1 dKH per day.

 

[HWDylan]

Are you running GFO? I had been running to high a dose of GFO and it was causing precipitation of thenequivalent of 0.5-1 dKH per day.

No GFO. No chemical filtration at all besides carbon when I feel it's needed.

 

[Peanut]

you say you are dosing "two part", but what exactly are you dosing? what is the alk mixture you are using?

 

[Peanut]

I use Tropic Marin Pro Reef so the Alk is around 7.0 usually. The tank is on auto water changes too so it very slowly does the 35 gallons a week. There should be no significant swing based on new salt water.

I was wondering if just the tank being new could be this unstable. This is not my first tank, but it is certainly my first of this size and it is a bare bottom which I know is challenging for the first year or two. I am more or less wondering if I am crazy to think that dosing 230ml a day of alk and cal is unusual. It is totally possible that I am just not use to a tank of this size. I just dont know where all that alk and cal could be going.


Almost no coraline algae in the tank at this point. I dose Calcium in equal proportions to the Alk. I have not had to dose Mag yet. The water changes seem to keep up with it as of now.

if you want to take the water change water out of the equation it would be easy to adjust the 35 gallons to 8.0 or whatever your goal is when you mix it

 

[HWDylan]

BRS 2 part. I use soda ash for the alkalinity portion mixed to their specifications.

if you want to take the water change water out of the equation it would be easy to adjust the 35 gallons to 8.0 or whatever your goal is when you mix it

Yea, for the time being im just putting a hold on everything. Once I start back up with water changes I will. I think it's only like 1 tbs of soda ash to adjust my water mix up 1 dKH. Pretty simple to do.

 

[Crashjack]

Is it possible your cyano is actually dinos? When I got back in the hobby 2 years ago, I started my 142 gal with all dry rock and had similar symptoms... no coralline growth, no coral growth, chaeto didn’t die, but it wouldn’t grow. I wasn’t worried about low nutrients because I had never heard of such a thing. When I left the hobby 15 years before, everybody started their tanks with live rock, and though people strived to reach 0 nitrate and 0 phosphate, they never achieved it. Lo and behold, I achieved it in this tank with a dino plague to boot.

I was adding kalk for alk/Ca management but also had weird things happen with alk and Mg in that they were all over the place in a lightly stocked tank. My alk might drop from 8.5 dkh to 7 over several days and then I would add enough sodium bicarbonate to raise to 8, and I would check a few days later and it would be 10. My Mg would increase from week to week with no addition and then all of a sudden drop. I re-tested, bought new Hanna reagents (alk), bought new Salifert test kits (Mg), and I got the same crazy results. I had to add a lot of Flourish nitrogen and phosphorus, and it took a lot of time, but I finally licked the dinos. I now have a much more stocked tank with growing corals, a lot of coralline, growing chaeto, and my alk and Mg readings now make sense.

 

[Brew12]

In a possibly related note:

My skimmer has always produced this extremely thick almost foamy skimmate that bubbles out of the lid constantly. I have never had a skimmer do this, but I have also never used an external skimmer either so I wasn't sure how relevant this was.

Could there be a correlation between the thick skimmate and this overall issue of tank problems and high alkalinity consumption? Bacteria possibly?

I just figured I would put forth any little tidbit that I thought possibly relevant. If not please ignore this haha.

I have a feeling that it connected so it's great information to share. Just a matter of figuring out how it fits into the puzzle.

What kind of rock did you get for your system? And did you use any type of concrete mix to bind it all together?

 

[HWDylan]

I have a feeling that it connected so it's great information to share. Just a matter of figuring out how it fits into the puzzle.

What kind of rock did you get for your system? And did you use any type of concrete mix to bind it all together?

It is half Dry Pukani from BRS (I snagged one of the last batched to come into the country) and half Dry Reef Saver. I bleached it, soaked it in RODI/Prime, and changed the water several times. I then let it sit and dry for about 2 months while I was waiting for the tank to be built. The only thing holding the rock work together is some Jurassic Gel Super Glue. I did use the BRS Super Glue Accelerator on it but that should not be an issue, I have used that stuff before and never had an issue.

No concrete mix or epoxies.

Is it possible your cyano is actually dinos?

I do not think this is the case but without a microscope I cannot be 100%. The stuff I have on my rocks looks an behaves exactly like cyano. Bright green or Reddish and it comes off in big sheets once it gets thick enough.

I will look into getting a confirmation of this though. Dinos would be a pain but I think I could nuke them out of the tank now since there are not really any corals to speak of that I need to be careful of killing.

 

[HWDylan]

Another side note: The barrel I was using for my ATO reservoir was an HDPE 55 gallon drum I got from a car wash. I rinsed it really well with bleach several times, then poured several gallons of vinegar in it and let it soak for 24hrs (did this 2x) and then let the hose run through it for several hours. Last I rinsed it with RODI water a few times. The barrel always still smelled like soap but I was assure by many reefing folks that they have used soap barrels before without problems. I never thought much about it until I really started looking for the issues surrounding this tank. As a precaution I did ditch the soap barrel for one that only had food grade stuff in it a week or so ago.

Again, possibly connected possibly not. Just more info that may be useful.

I did run a Triton ICP test on the tank a few months ago and everything came back almost perfect. Slightly high Al but that was expected because I had just replaced a faulty Brightwell XPORT brick that week and I know new bricks tend to leach a little Al out. Not crazy high numbers though. Nothing I would be concerned about at least.

 

[Brew12]

and half Dry Reef Saver. I bleached it, soaked it in RODI/Prime, and changed the water several times. I then let it sit and dry for about 2 months while I was waiting for the tank to be built.

Do you have a smaller piece of this that you can soak in a 50/50 vinegar mix for a week or two? I'd like to see how much crud comes out of it. Fist size piece, either an extra you didn't use or one from your tank, would be plenty large enough for this.

 

[HWDylan]

Do you have a smaller piece of this that you can soak in a 50/50 vinegar mix for a week or two? I'd like to see how much crud comes out of it. Fist size piece, either an extra you didn't use or one from your tank, would be plenty large enough for this.

I have a bucket of rubble that I use as frag plugs. It all mostly pukani since that stuff breaks pretty easily in shipping. I could throw a few pieces in vinegar today and get that going

 

[HWDylan]

Here is one Reef Saver piece and one pukani.

Big enough?