High nitrates and phosphates but no algae? Why not?

[mta_morrow]

LOL..

Are you hoping for Algae?

I could be your lighting. If low on white and red, and you only have blue, algae won't grow as much.
If you want algae turn up your red, and watch it explode. Red/Blue is what makes Algae Scrubber grow algae.

But you do raise an interesting point.

I do have an algae scrubber, and at first it was like a Algae Factory. 100+ grams of Algae every two weeks.
Then after a while it slowed down, and now barely grows any (5 grams maybe a month).
My nitrates are around 25, and PO4 was around 0.3 and still no Significant Algae.
I wondered about that. I wonder what's stopped the Algae scrubber since it wasn't N&P. Something else must be missing. I thought Potassium, but it's on spec.

I actually run high whites and reds and low blues. It’s about balance and maturity, not nutrients and lights.

 

[mta_morrow]

Interesting I have more or less the same situation no algae in the display but also dont have a refugium in my sump No3 stays more or less at 20 and the Po4 at+0.09.

That’s just fine if everything is happy.

 

[WallyB]

I actually run high whites and reds and low blues. It’s about balance and maturity, not nutrients and lights.

I agree on the Maturity thing, but there has to be a chemical reason (if not lighting)

 

[Thales]

Great question. I think there are probably multiple reasons this occurs. A couple that I thought of ......

1. It's possible that high nutrients are not the 'cause' of algae problems...only fuel to the fire when there is a lack of biodiversity. A healthy tank can often get away with what we used to think of as dangerous levels of nutrients.

2. Great algae control in place. My tank is a good example. If you look at my tank you won't see a speck of nuisance algae despite my NO3 level of 10 and PO4 level 0.08-0.14. However if you take a peek into my overflow you will see gobs of hair algae and some bubble algae. In my DT the only place I can find it is on the top of the return nozzel( which is about 1/2" under water and unreachable for my tang) and behind a rock that is resting against the overflow and doesn't allow access. Otherwise my CUC keeps it clean as can be.

Interesting to see if the lack of algae persists over time! Great thread!

I think this is on the right track. There are just too many systems without algae problems that have what people consider to be high nutrients. My nitrate last time I tested at the end of November is 57 and my phosphate .67, both measured with a Hach DR890 and I have no algae issues in the either of the DTs. The only time I have had algae issues has been when my herbivore populations wane, but not always. In one of the DT's I had some algae starting up, and I removed what I could by had by hand, tooth brushed the rocks that had algae, added some new snails (that population had shrunk over a year or two), and then tooth brushed the rocks infected a few weeks later. All gone.

Coverage may also have something to do with it - more coral and coralline may outcompete algaes for real estate.

Fuel to the fire makes sense to me, and sits nicely with the ideas around phase shifting in marine environments. Once the system has shifted, it is very hard to get back. I think most algae battles we hear about have already shifted too far and then it's a knock down drag out fight. If you deal with before the shift happens, you'll have an easier time dealing with it.

I get the thinking behind nutrient levels and the thinking that controlling them should have an impact, but we see too many tanks with 'fine' nutrient levels with algae and too many tanks with 'horrible' nutrient levels and no algae to make me think that nutrients are the place to stage this kind of fight. YMMV

 

[Quietman]

Who knows? There's too many examples of high nutrient but good looking tanks to predict why some work, some don't. Biological processes in a complex closed system, especially a mature one are going to be hard to predict cause and effect. Could be a dozen or more different factors and likely not just one.

Agree with bringing them back down though...there are more examples of complete disasters with high nutrient tanks. Plus even if it's ok, I'm thinking that has to be a stress on the system that's just waiting for one of those other dozen things to fail before really causing problems.

 

[ReefGeezer]

I agree on the Maturity thing, but there has to be a chemical reason (if not lighting)

I'll join the discussion... In a mature tank, substrate needed to start growth is limited and competition with corals, bacteria, and other organisms is high. That lack of space becomes the limiting factor. There are usually a lot of organisms waiting for a little algae to pop up.

I do think that nutrients and light can be the easier things to manage in order to keep algae from getting out of hand until a tank reaches maturity. There has to be a balance there too. I think maybe we delay maturity of the tank by starving the organisms that are required in an effort to keep nutrients low.

 

[WallyB]

I'll join the discussion... In a mature tank, substrate needed to start growth is limited and competition with corals, bacteria, and other organisms is high. That lack of space becomes the limiting factor. There are usually a lot of organisms waiting for a little algae to pop up.

I do think that nutrients and light can be the easier things to manage in order to keep algae from getting out of hand until a tank reaches maturity. There has to be a balance there too. I think maybe we delay maturity of the tank by starving the organisms that are required in an effort to keep nutrients low.

Very good point, and I have a supporting observation.

My Algae scrubber has a screen like all other Alage scrubbers.
WHen that screen aged it got covered in Coraline. Wherever there was coraline on screen, NO algae attaching in those spots. CORALINE RESISTS ALGAE.

I actually removed one of the coraline covered Screen last week. Useless to grow algae on.
It was acatually was covered in nothing but Coraline/APTASIA (Maybe a good filter screen, but YUCK)

Only some macro algae here and there. The Top part still not covered in Coraline was outside water (or not in direct lighting)

Here is the one of same screens when it wasn't coraline covered. (that was when young), it got all covered at one point, and harvest was double.

So it shows as Tanks Mature, Coraline coverage on rocks is the protection from Algae on Rocks.
Another example is my Return Spout. As it get's covered in Coraline, it's pristine.
Sometimes I clean it and it goes thru an ugly stage.

 

[mta_morrow]

Very good point, and I have a supporting observation.

My Algae scrubber has a screen like all other Alage scrubbers.
WHen that screen aged it got covered in Coraline. Wherever there was coraline on screen, NO algae attaching in those spots. CORALINE RESISTS ALGAE.

I actually removed one of the coraline covered Screen last week. Useless to grow algae on.
It was acatually was covered in nothing but Coraline/APTASIA (Maybe a good filter screen, but YUCK)

Only some macro algae here and there. The Top part still not covered in Coraline was outside water (or not in direct lighting)

Here is the one of same screens when it wasn't coraline covered. (that was when young), it got all covered at one point, and harvest was double.

So it shows as Tanks Mature, Coraline coverage on rocks is the protection from Algae on Rocks.
Another example is my Return Spout. As it get's covered in Coraline, it's pristine.
Sometimes I clean it and it goes thru an ugly stage.

I keep my rock pretty clear of coraline w urchins. No algae

 

[ReefGeezer]

CORALINE RESISTS ALGAE.

Not just Coraline... Various bacteria colonies cover the substrate in mature tanks. Pineapple sponges, tube worms, and other organisms abound. Corals cover or shade the rocks and use nutrients. Planktonic life of varying types use algae at macro/microscopic levels as a food source. Add in an algae eating clean up crew to a mature tank and algae just doesn't stand a chance.

 

[Billldg]

This is a very interesting subject, wonder if our understanding of what causes algae outbreaks is way off.

 

[Dine]

I have a reactor that is growing GHA, but that’s all.

There’s your reason. Why would algae grow in the DT when youve given it a better option.

 

[slayerhellfire]

So for 17 months or so, nitrates and phosphates have been steady. NO3 10-16, PO4.03-.1. No algae.

about a month ago I added a diamond goby. Dyson has been a good goby and has has exceeded my expectations! My sand bed is pristine!
But all that digging up of a 17 month old sand bed now has nitrates at 60+ and phosphates at .29
Water changes are starting again and I will get those back to where I want them. No big deal.
But......why no algae?

because its balanced, my buddys system had po4 of 200 on hanna ULR checker, do the math on that lol, his nitrates were 50 but zero algae and all his stuff is thriving !

 

[Thales]

There’s your reason. Why would algae grow in the DT when youve given it a better option.

What is the evidence that supports the idea that, in the same system, growing algae in one place makes it less likely that it grows in another? Thanks

Edit - wouldn't it make more sense that the lack of herbivores in one place, but not in the other, be a more likely explanation?

 

[John3]

I run nitrates 15-20(sometimes up to 30) and phosphates1-2 and have little to no algae growth. I clean my glass once a week. I attribute this to live rock and the plethora of corals consuming the nutrients.

 

[Dine]

What is the evidence that supports the idea that, in the same system, growing algae in one place makes it less likely that it grows in another? Thanks

Edit - wouldn't it make more sense that the lack of herbivores in one place, but not in the other, be a more likely explanation?

The amount of light, the correct surface area to grow on, the correct flow. That’s why it grows in a algae scrubber and not in a DT. The evidence is in the thousands of reefers using ATS for this very reason.

it’s not that algae can’t grow in another place it’s that algae is competing for resources. The algae in the ATS has the upper hand. So it thrives while algae trying to take route elsewhere has access to the same nutrients but not the light, flow, and surface area making it Less competitive and thus likely to thrive

 

[mta_morrow]

There’s your reason. Why would algae grow in the DT when youve given it a better option.

The reactor is off line and was run for about 4 weeks out of 22 months

 

[Thales]

The amount of light, the correct surface area to grow on, the correct flow. That’s why it grows in a algae scrubber and not in a DT. The evidence is in the thousands of reefers using ATS for this very reason.

What about the thousands of tanks that don't have algae issues and don't run a scrubber?
Do most of the ATS tanks still 'reslove' algae issues around the time we would expect tanks without ATS to resolve algae issues? That seemed to be the case when ATS first became a thing.
I get that you will likely grow more turf algae in an ATS because of the environment but don't lots of other algae thrive in the same conditions as coral?

it’s not that algae can’t grow in another place it’s that algae is competing for resources. The algae in the ATS has the upper hand. So it thrives while algae trying to take route elsewhere has access to the same nutrients but not the light, flow, and surface area making it Less competitive and thus likely to thrive

I think that is closer to what is actually happening, but I think it is more the herbivores that are making the difference. I bet if you take the herbivores out of a tank with an ATS, you will get algae in the DT, and that if you take an ATS off a system with herbivores in the DT, you won't get algae in the DT.

Thanks for the discussion. I have run ATS several times and seen no impact at all on algae growth or nutrient levels.

 

[Tamberav]

My 25g runs high nutrients...and I don't have algae. I have a lot of sponges growing in shaded areas so I assume they take the place of algae.

Actually I have more problems when a tank has low nutrients like dino and cyano.

 

[mta_morrow]

My 25g runs high nutrients...and I don't have algae. I have a lot of sponges growing in shaded areas so I assume they take the place of algae.

Actually I have more problems when a tank has low nutrients like dino and cyano.

I agree

 

[WallyB]

I run nitrates 15-20(sometimes up to 30) and phosphates1-2 and have little to no algae growth. I clean my glass once a week. I attribute this to live rock and the plethora of corals consuming the nutrients.

And that's the problem with new tanks. Low quantity and small corals don't filter and consume as much a an established thriving reef. Other things like bacteria and life are lacking or unstable. Not full established.

The young tanks have other problems beyond algae.

I have a 20 year old mature reef tank. I Do almost nothing since it runs on nature's auto-pilot.
My 2 year old tank is maintained to the highest standards and close watch, and gives me nothing but trouble!!