Higher volume peristaltic dosing pump for ATO?

[chefjpaul]

Today, I just hooked up a brand new avast peristaltic pump.

I have around 60 ft horizontal with many turns and about 5" head hight at the ato reservoir, Then drop from ceiling about 6 ft.

I couldn't get it to even prime. Then I hooked up a IM hydrofil, it pulls the water the distance.

 

[mcarroll]

Wet rotor pumps aren't really made for pressure and aren't the right pump for this application.

First, you indicate zero vertical head in post #1 or #8. Is it a flat, thirty-foot plumbing run or is there any vertical for the prospective pump to overcome?

Not to beat a horse, if it's dead...

...but I actually made post #12 as a direct counter to that bit of conventional wisdom about right pumps.

Experience dictates that an AC pump - even a cheap one - can be a GREAT ATO pump.

From what I can tell here, 30 horizontal feet are nearly insignificant in terms of back pressure.

A Rio 180 only loses about 2 GPH (out of about 118 GPH), just to name an example. On the other hand, pipe diameter and vertical head pressure are extremely significant.

Adding just 2 vertical feet to the same scenario cuts flow by more than 50%....with zero flow at around 3 vertical feet.

Certainly do it whatever way works for you, but there's no need to feel so obligated toward (or away) from one style of pump.

 

[fab]

Lol yeah but loud. I have a couple

Colson Palmer too

Are you recommending Colson Palmer or saying they are loud, too?

And do you mean Cole-Parmer peristaltic pumps?

 

[reefwiser]

Most perisalic pumps really don't do well pumping long distance. Many do to the one the vast majority of the hobby buy are small 12 vdc models and they heat up when ran for a long period of time to get water to where it needs to go. I have a GHL Doser and it will pump 50' but it uses 24 volt dc stepper motors and is heavier duty that most dosing pumps on the market. They still do not recommend that the motor run for more than 15 minutes an hour. Would a standard pump with a cut off high level switch and maybe a flow switch in the container to stop any flow.

 

[jason2459]

Are you recommending Colson Palmer or saying they are loud, too?

And do you mean Cole-Parmer peristaltic pumps?

No not loud like the stenner. Just giving another example of something that could work but a little overkill.

 

[jason2459]

Can a powerhead work for ATO? Yes. It's not my preference to have a high flow rate as ATO setups are known to fail in the past and will fail in the future. One of those when not if scenarios. Like heaters its usually a stuck on scenario.

I do what I can to help prevent that and if it happens limit what happens.

• Not having to large of an ATO container
• Multiple switch inputs of different kinds
  • Mutltiple Float switches
  • Optical switches
  • Pressure switches
• Not allowing the pump to pump for to long at a single time
• Not having a pump that can pump to fast
• Arrange setup to not have a siphon capable

Many have used powerheads yes. Many have also used really cheap aqualifter diaphragm pumps which if you don't have to much head height are perfect.

Head height is created by more then just virtical hight. Horizonatal runs can have significant headheight as well based on material used, angels/bends/adapters, diameters, and pump used. Different pumpa not only handle head heights differently but also the headheight can depend on the pump.

Peristaltic pumps can handle pulling and pushing great distances. I suggest using one with at least 3 rollers. They reduce the chance of siphon if its a risk. Use of siphon breaks and one way valves should still be used when appropriate but not expected to never fail. Most peristaltic pumps or diaphragm pumps shouldn't be ran for to long which is a part of something I prefer to implement anyway as noted in the bullets above.

They do have the benifit of being able to run dry. I've actually have never had that happen yet but understand it is fully a possibility and like to plan for risks. Can a typical powerhead servive running in low water not completely dry, maybe. I've had a rio pump get damaged in a low water event as a skimmer pump. It was a lovely coralife super skimmer 65.

Can xyz work... personal opinion and risk acceptance will determin the answer.

 

[dbrewsky]

The Neptune DOS would be a good candidate since you already have an APEX. They can pump rather quickly if you are running a reasonable length of tubing to the display.

 

[Ocelaris]

I'm not going to quote Jason's post, but I agree with that completely in it's entirety. Different pumps for different purposes and I made my choice with a diaphragm pump for cost, but if I had the money would have put it into a nicer peristaltic (and probably will long term).

I've recently been disappointed with Neptune's manner in which they released their new Apex, so the shine's worn off and hesitant if not opposed to paying their premium despite the integration benefit of the DOS. I'll probably end up with some stand alone Spectrapure's once the BRS 1.1ml pumps die, but I won't be trying to use them for long distance pumping, just seems too far for that use as I've learned!

 

[dbrewsky]

I can understand your concern, but I have nothing but positive experiences with the DOS. It really is a high quality device. You have to remember that Neptune has been making multiple iteration of their controller for YEARS for a reason. The existing controller platform and its associated devices are pretty rock solid. Windows was notorious for roll out bugs but people still use it, give them a chance

 

[mcarroll]

I can understand your concern, but I have nothing but positive experiences...

Posting for posterity is totally legit, but neither appeals to experience nor get-er-done-creative-usage are being received.

Besides, problem is solved....he should already have a decent pump in the Avast diaphragm...as long as it works and lasts as expected.

Cheaper diaphragms couldn't push water this far without tricks, they never last and their performance degrades quickly...but I think that's the reason for the Avast pump being made.

 

[mcarroll]

Horizonatal runs can have significant headheight as well

Everyone is mostly familiar with bends and vertical head being significant.

The OP only noted a long 30' run of flexible tubing. I gave him the credit and assumed he mentioned the most significant details.

I imagine there could be a 90º or two at most, but there shouldn't need to be...generally tubing runs are straight with no hard bends.

Horizontal runs seem to be mostly inert based on the headloss calculator I linked.

Guys, please know I don't really care what pump you use or how you do ATO....but still I'm not making any of this up!

 

[mcarroll]

A good option I don't see brought up much that I remembered:
API Instruments

Lots of good pump types and options to choose from, reasonable pricing and direct sales.

 

[Ocelaris]

mcarroll, I appreciate your contributions to the thread. My apologies if my responses came off like I was disregarding your opinion (or others), that was not my intent; I've just been trying to steer the questions back towards my use case. I was really just looking for some of the nuances surrounding pump types and that has helped me make a decision which may not be completely clear to everyone, but just know it helped inform my decision, so thank you for the posts.

I don't know if I mentioned it earlier, but I have a Panworld 40PX that I use for water changes sitting right next to where the peristaltic/diaphragm ATO pump is, so I'm definitely not anti-impeller, just doesn't fit with the tubing that I have for ATO! The tubing is run in the wall and is never coming out, so I have 6x 1/4" poly tubing dedicated for ATO and dosing, so I'll be utilizing that tubing instead of stealing the 1/2" or 3/4" lines that I have plans for different uses; and I will definitely be using impeller pumps when I do utilize those larger lines.

I wasn't suggesting at that the APEX products were inferior at all. I just had some poor customer service experiences with them and have decided to look at other companies. They may have the best product in the world, but if I get the cold shoulder there's no reason for me to continue to support them.

 

[fab]

They may have the best product in the world, but if I get the cold shoulder there's no reason for me to continue to support them.

Never had that experience in over 20 years. I might be good for you to give them another try; rather than walk away from some of the best products on the market.

The DOS pumps do deliver ATO and AWC flow rates, even for rather large systems.

 

[Ocelaris]

Then I guess you're lucky because it was my very first interaction and I had a terrible one! I opened a ticket, they closed it, when I complained that they didn't answer my question they sent a terse note and sent me on my way. Really poor response to a brand new customer. To me their products integrate well, but there are plenty of other companies I have yet to have a bad experience with, so maybe they're the best of the worst and I just haven't experienced terrible service! It could be a fluke, but only time will tell if their customers move away, of which I am one.

 

[mcarroll]

I'm definitely not anti-impeller, just doesn't fit with the tubing that I have for ATO! The tubing is run in the wall and is never coming out, so I have 6x 1/4" poly tubing dedicated for ATO and dosing, so I'll be utilizing that tubing

Makes sense!

I think it's still possible to get a 1/4" push-fit adapter that will allow you to connect any normal threaded pump.

I like Parker fittings when possible, but this is just one example....your local big box hardware store should also carrier push connectors that will get you there too.

Depending on the alternate pump you were trying to fit, you could start with one of these 1/4" x 1/4"MIP adapters to get male or female threaded connections that would work with most AC pumps:

For my Eco+ ATO pump which has a female 1/2" threaded outlet, I would take the second option and add something like this 1/4" x 1/2" threaded bushing to connect it to my pump:

They also sell valves with the same male or female threaded connection options.

Also, I know BRS uses a push-fit x push-fit adapter (maybe 3/8"?) to connect a maxi jet to their reactors....so that's another connection-class of pumps that could work for you. You'd just need to verify which size "union connector" you need:

All that said, I hope the Avast works out - definitely post your experiences when you get it set up!

 

[Ocelaris]

The avast diaphragm pump works great, the fittings to the pump leave much to be desired however as they seem a bit loose with hard polyethylene tubing. But so far has worked great for a reasonable price. The idea of a siphon break doesn't seem to work as the pump just sends water out both tubes!

 

[mcarroll]

Too much back pressure downstream from the siphon break....in theory, you can make the siphon break plumbing tall enough that it'll contain the pressure. Maybe simply so the break-plumbing is above the source and destination water level?

I guess you could reverse engineer how much tubing would be needed from a head loss calculator...but the ones I know don't consider plumbing below 3/4" in diameter...hrm.

 

[mcarroll]

Oh! If you can, zip tie or otherwise clamp the tubing above the barb.

If that proves unsatisfactory, I'd revert to one of those push-fit to NPT (threaded) adapters/valves I linked earlier, and find a NPT to airline adapter like this (there are others) to make the hookup to the pump nicer: