Hippo HLLE?

[kkgaskin90]

Is it possible she's stressed and lonely? Her clown fish BFF died, and now she's got this. It's not spreading, but I worry about her. She hides in the rocks and only eats if I step away from the tank and keep the kids out of the room. Very skiddish where she wasn't before. I'm constantly testing water and parameters are great, feeding a variety of good food... I'm at a loss.

 

[Humblefish]

Does look like the beginnings of HLLE. Hippos are very susceptible. See below for more info.

Head & Lateral Line Erosion "HLLE":

Symptoms - HLLE literally looks as though the skin is rotting or peeling off the fish. Affected areas usually include the face and lateral line, and may be white in color.

Treatment options - This is more of a condition than an actual disease. Since no one can agree on the exact cause, all you can do is address all of the following theories regarding HLLE:

1) Stray voltage - Use a titanium ground probe & test your tank for stray voltage.
2) Running carbon - Don’t use it, or use only premium grade carbon.
3) Nutritional deficiency - Feed high quality nutritional foods. Some have had success reversing the effects of HLLE by soaking food in “fish vitamins” and also feeding nori.

 

[kkgaskin90]

Thank you! Where would I find fish vitamins? She hasn't paid much attention to the Nori since her buddy died

 

[Humblefish]

Thank you! Where would I find fish vitamins? She hasn't paid much attention to the Nori since her buddy died

Selcon, Zoecon, Vita-chem are available at some LFS and online. You can find them at places like Foster & Smith or even Amazon.

 

[STL]

Is she the only fish in the tank? In my experience, hippos do not do well alone - they need other fish around to feel secure.

I've had LRS Reef Frenzy reverse HLLE in my hippo - worth a try if you haven't tried it yet and if you can find it (it's frozen)

 

[kkgaskin90]

The only other fish is a Flame Hawkfish. I have Anthias in QT that will go in after 1 more week. I'll look for Reef Frenzy and see if I can help her out. I feel bad for her

 

[ReefFrenzy]

Is she the only fish in the tank? In my experience, hippos do not do well alone - they need other fish around to feel secure.

I've had LRS Reef Frenzy reverse HLLE in my hippo - worth a try if you haven't tried it yet and if you can find it (it's frozen)

Thanks for the plug!

To the original poster your profile lists you are in Mobile, AL and I am not sure how far you are from the dealers we have in Alabama. You can enter your zip code on our searchable map at ReefFrenzy.com

If that doesn't work shoot me a pm and I will try and assist you.

As noted HLLE can be caused by different factors and often can be reversed. The first time I visited Utah and dove the tank to feed LRS many of the tangs had pinched bellies and signs of HLLE. The fish have improved visually over the past several months feeding our Herbivore Frenzy® to this system and another just like it in Montana. Quality food (of any brand, not just LRS) and diverse nutrition can make a big difference.

Good luck!

Larry

 

[kkgaskin90]

Thanks so much! We have 1 LFS that carries it, and the other I requested to carry it-hopefully they will do so soon!

Anthias + Hippo = MUCH happier hippo. She's still a bit skiddish when there's movement in front of the tank but is otherwise out swimming and eating.

 

[4FordFamily]

I agree. No carbon or high quality carbon, feed nori at least 3x week, soak foods in selcon or other fish vitamins- add in cod liver oil also.

I've never had a hippo develop hlle with this. I've had hippos for about 5 years now. I tend to think that poor nutrition is the primary culprit. No foods we feed our fish other than live black worms contains any fish oils to speak of. In the wild, they would get them each time they eat another fish or other organism.

Most I see with hlle issues are fed flakes primarily, and rarely frozen foods mixed.

I mix say ten types of frozen fish food in a 1 cup container, microwave them for 2 mins, drain the water out (a fine strainer works for this), then add selcon, garlic guard, and cod liver oil to soak it in. I feed this for up to two weeks and keep refrigerated. My fish are healthy as horses and I keep some very difficult fish with specific dietary needs without issue. I also feed nori daily, and split between ocean nutrition red nori and the regular green nori sourced from grocer or Asian market.

 

[kkgaskin90]

Oh OK! I'll definitely step up my feeding game.

Doesn't ChemiPure Blue have Carbon? Remove that?

 

[4FordFamily]

Oh OK! I'll definitely step up my feeding game.

Doesn't ChemiPure Blue have Carbon? Remove that?

To be honest, I am not sure. I use carbon in my tanks after big events (moves, rock changes, etc.) for a few months while things settle, then remove. All 3 of mine currently have it, I have not removed it. IMO, carbon is less a driver of HLLE for fish than is nutrition and water quality. I have read many that agree, but some that say carbon is the sole culprit (I doubt it). BUT, what do I know...

Hopefully someone more knowledgeable with carbon can chime in. I just have carbon "Pellets" i got from amazon. I did my research, and at the time I thought they were "good" but I do not remember what they are, sorry!

 

[Humblefish]

I only use Rox 0.8 due to HLLE concerns, and so far so good.

However, 20+ years ago I primarily used ChemiPure and didn't have HLLE problems then either.

 

[TamiW]

Likely the most important factor to look at is why the clown died. Fish should not up and die for no reason - follow that culprit and you'll have why the tang isn't looking so hot.

No foods we feed our fish other than live black worms contains any fish oils to speak of.

This is not correct.

I mix say ten types of frozen fish food in a 1 cup container, microwave them for 2 mins, drain the water out (a fine strainer works for this), then add selcon, garlic guard, and cod liver oil to soak it in. I feed this for up to two weeks and keep refrigerated. My fish are healthy as horses and I keep some very difficult fish with specific dietary needs without issue. I also feed nori daily, and split between ocean nutrition red nori and the regular green nori sourced from grocer or Asian market.

Your food will be rancid by the time you're feeding out the majority of it. You should be thawing out a day or two worth at most, and being careful how you thaw. I would not thaw in the microwave. Cold water and/or in the fridge is the way to go here. Don't leave it out on the counter for an extended length of time. If the water is warmer than cold, it's been out too long (thus thawing in the fridge being preferable.)

 

[4FordFamily]

Likely the most important factor to look at is why the clown died. Fish should not up and die for no reason - follow that culprit and you'll have why the tang isn't looking so hot.


This is not correct.


Your food will be rancid by the time you're feeding out the majority of it. You should be thawing out a day or two worth at most, and being careful how you thaw. I would not thaw in the microwave. Cold water and/or in the fridge is the way to go here. Don't leave it out on the counter for an extended length of time. If the water is warmer than cold, it's been out too long (thus thawing in the fridge being preferable.)

I've used this feeding regimine for almost a decade, without issue. The only thing added is cod liver oil per Paul's suggestion. that's been added for a few months.

And "to speak of" means in any relevant volumes. 1% daily value is hardly worth mentioning. My food lasts a week on average, but after 2 weeks it doesn't smell at all. It doesn't sit out for any length of time.

Perhaps it's something in the garlic guard, it's a real non issue, the fish love it, and I would think if it were poor practice then there would have been a repercussion or two over the years.

I will say though that when you add live black worms in to the mix of frozen, it goes foul in DAYS and is disgusting. Do not do that.

 

[kkgaskin90]

The clown died quite some time ago... I'm not sure why it died. All I can figure is an accident... like he got too close and got stuck to the powerhead for some time? He had gone through copper treatment about 6 months before the death, been treated with PraziPro... all the tank mates had been through the same. He was eating and fine the night before and I found him dead the next morning. It was a shock.

 

[4FordFamily]

Copper is known to weaken fish immune systems. That being said, I consider it a necessary evil to protect it and other fish from parasites that are far worse than copper side effects.

 

[TamiW]

I've used this feeding regimine for almost a decade, without issue. The only thing added is cod liver oil per Paul's suggestion. that's been added for a few months.

And "to speak of" means in any relevant volumes. 1% daily value is hardly worth mentioning. My food lasts a week on average, but after 2 weeks it doesn't smell at all. It doesn't sit out for any length of time.

Perhaps it's something in the garlic guard, it's a real non issue, the fish love it, and I would think if it were poor practice then there would have been a repercussion or two over the years.

I will say though that when you add live black worms in to the mix of frozen, it goes foul in DAYS and is disgusting. Do not do that.

I would guess you've gotten lucky so far? Or haven't made the connection between any issues and your feeding protocol. But any seafood is going to have some level of omega3 fatty acids, and they go rancid fairly quickly. I'm sure adding them back via cod oil helps somewhat, but that likely means you're also adding a lot of unnecessary nutrients in your tank because added oil will mostly sit on the surface and be mostly rinsed away. And rancid lipids don't just lose the nutritional value they once had, they become actively harmful, releasing free radicals with further damages lipids, along with damaging the fish feeding off of it.

I've written a bit about frozen food handling and the consequences here:
http://fusedjaw.com/food-and-nutrition/frozen-mysis-part-2-the-science-behind-the-food/
It's written in the context of seahorses, but much of it applies to all marine fish. I hope you find it helpful.

Omega3 fatty acids are the first to go rancid, but you also suffer from protein denaturation, and it happens faster at warmer temperatures, including those of a refrigerator. Think about it this way, would YOU eat fish that has been in the fridge that long? If you wouldn't, your fish shouldn't be. Seafood spoils extremely fast, and the fact you're feeding to your fish rather than eating yourself doesn't change this.

If you don't want take my word on it, these guys have some thing to say on the subject:
http://www.fao.org/docrep/v7180e/v7180e06.htm
http://www.fao.org/docrep/v7180e/V7180E07.htm

The amount of lipids varies by species, but it's more than you're suggesting. LRS reef frenzy is 2.7%, which appear to be the wet weight. See here: http://nebula.wsimg.com/b52c876691a...4BAEC256E41338E0A&disposition=0&alloworigin=1 Hikari Plankton is 7% lipids. I could go on, but there isn't much point. Seafood is relatively high in lipids (oils).

 

[Humblefish]

@TamiW Good info!

 

[4FordFamily]

I would guess you've gotten lucky so far? Or haven't made the connection between any issues and your feeding protocol. But any seafood is going to have some level of omega3 fatty acids, and they go rancid fairly quickly. I'm sure adding them back via cod oil helps somewhat, but that likely means you're also adding a lot of unnecessary nutrients in your tank because added oil will mostly sit on the surface and be mostly rinsed away. And rancid lipids don't just lose the nutritional value they once had, they become actively harmful, releasing free radicals with further damages lipids, along with damaging the fish feeding off of it.

I've written a bit about frozen food handling and the consequences here:
http://fusedjaw.com/food-and-nutrition/frozen-mysis-part-2-the-science-behind-the-food/
It's written in the context of seahorses, but much of it applies to all marine fish. I hope you find it helpful.

Omega3 fatty acids are the first to go rancid, but you also suffer from protein denaturation, and it happens faster at warmer temperatures, including those of a refrigerator. Think about it this way, would YOU eat fish that has been in the fridge that long? If you wouldn't, your fish shouldn't be. Seafood spoils extremely fast, and the fact you're feeding to your fish rather than eating yourself doesn't change this.

If you don't want take my word on it, these guys have some thing to say on the subject:
http://www.fao.org/docrep/v7180e/v7180e06.htm
http://www.fao.org/docrep/v7180e/V7180E07.htm

The amount of lipids varies by species, but it's more than you're suggesting. LRS reef frenzy is 2.7%, which appear to be the wet weight. See here: http://nebula.wsimg.com/b52c876691a...4BAEC256E41338E0A&disposition=0&alloworigin=1 Hikari Plankton is 7% lipids. I could go on, but there isn't much point. Seafood is relatively high in lipids (oils).

For my uses, the food lasts a week. I frequently eat week old left overs. After that though I toss it.

I got the cod liver oil idea from paul. Good information though. Thanks

 

[kkgaskin90]

I caught and re-homed the tang last week. I couldn't improve her situation and considering she needed a bigger tank in the long run anyway, I felt this was the best course of action