HLLE
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Freddy0144
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Interesting thread. I recently received a Yellow Belly Hippo tang the was purchased as a QT fish. The fish did not ship well and the bag leaked during shipping, the fish survived the event and was eventually added to the display and was fine after a couple of hours. Then after being in the tank for a couple of days it started to hide in a rock usually vertical head down in position. truly odd for a fish that was fine for several days.
I was very concerned, fish was not really eating, but it's color was normal no spots regular respiratory gill movement. I began searching about care and introduction to a new aquarium. I have had several of the regular hippos in the past and knew the care was very similar.
The article talked about HLLE and the use of activated carbon in the aquarium and that it can impact HLLE. The solution was to take the activated carbon off line and do a large water change (the recommendation was to do 100% over a few days.)
I choose to do a 45% water change spent the day making sure the temp and salinity were the same. Within an hour of the water change the fish was out and active in the tank and has been since.
I had no idea that active carbon could impact a fish in this nature. All that being said, now what does one do for water clarity? I run a UV and Filter socks which are changed every 3 days.
I was very concerned, fish was not really eating, but it's color was normal no spots regular respiratory gill movement. I began searching about care and introduction to a new aquarium. I have had several of the regular hippos in the past and knew the care was very similar.
The article talked about HLLE and the use of activated carbon in the aquarium and that it can impact HLLE. The solution was to take the activated carbon off line and do a large water change (the recommendation was to do 100% over a few days.)
I choose to do a 45% water change spent the day making sure the temp and salinity were the same. Within an hour of the water change the fish was out and active in the tank and has been since.
I had no idea that active carbon could impact a fish in this nature. All that being said, now what does one do for water clarity? I run a UV and Filter socks which are changed every 3 days.
Do you do regular water changes? It could have been other water conditions like nitrate or some other parameters being off. Certain fish respond differently then others. I still run carbon but it is packed tightly in a reactor. I only have one fish that has HLLE but I think it had it when I purchased it but wasn't noticeable at the time.
Freddy0144
Active Member
There is always that chance, but I find it highly unlikely, The Nitrate and Phosphate were higher than I like, but not out of control. I dont do regular water changes, I am not a big proponent of water changes, I would have to change like 50 gallons per week in order to maintain some type of normal so I would rather go other routes like running a carbon reactor, and chateo to manage nitrate and phosphate, the Chateo is actually more to establish a pod farm.
To manage waste I change filter socks every 3 days, run my skimmer, and the carbon reactor (not activated carbon) I also dose a small amount of bacteria weekly right now until the carbon reactor is established.
Pay attention to the carbon reactors. It's more work than you would think. Use gfo for phosphate and deal with the nitrate for now. How long is the tank been running? No reason to dose bacteria unless you dump a bunch of fish on it. You also have to harvest any type of algae before it starts dying. It will release all the phosphate and nitrates back.
TangerineSpeedo
2500 Club Member
Personally I don't buy into the whole carbon deal. Cheap carbon that breaks down easy or has a lot of dust has some credibility, But I really think it has to do with diet and water quality. In the late 80's in college (SIU) I had Tangs with florescent lighting, tap water and IO salt mix never a issue with HELLE. After college, worked for a while at Aquariums by Design in Chicago and started to see it more and more. Back then it was just tap water and sodium thisufate (SP). Forward to today, well about 8 weeks ago, I rescued a blue tang that had fin rot and HELLE from THAT store, responded very well to treatment and now is in my display and the HELLE is visibly getting better.
This is MY experience, Yours may be different...
This is MY experience, Yours may be different...
Jay Hemdal
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The carbon connection has been proven in two studies, one by myself and one by the team at Disney.
Head and Lateral Line Erosion (HLLE)
This article discusses studies performed regarding head and lateral line erosion in captive fishes. Specifically, carbon use and nutrition as they relate to this syndrome.
www.reef2reef.com
There is a related issue that I call epithelial thinning:
Captive-Bred Yellow Tangs - showing HLLE? - CORAL Magazine
I've seen photographs of wild Black Tangs, taken with flash photography, where they show what looks like classic HLLE lesions, but which is simply due to the camera flash.
Jay
I believe carbon does in fact contribute to HLLE. Maybe a coincidence though. Didn't want to prove it. I had changed out my carbon and gfo at my normal time period. About 2 weeks after I noticed my Hippo acting strange and getting signs of HLLE along with one of my dwarf Angel's. Checked everything I could. What I noticed was my carbon was tumbling like crazy! Normally it's packed tight. Did a bunch of water changes and made sure I didn't make the same mistake again. The Hippo did heal but has some scars from it. Never happened again. Maybe coincidence but I don't think so. Happened pretty fast also. But took a long time to heal. I'm sure there was still carbon fines in the water for some time.
Jay Hemdal
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Tumbling carbon in a reactor has happened to a lot of folks, including some public aquariums, it really makes the HLLE worse .
Jay
TangerineSpeedo
2500 Club Member
Good to know! I haven’t found your study before. It was a good read. Point taken and noted.The carbon connection has been proven in two studies, one by myself and one by the team at Disney.
Head and Lateral Line Erosion (HLLE)
This article discusses studies performed regarding head and lateral line erosion in captive fishes. Specifically, carbon use and nutrition as they relate to this syndrome.
There is a related issue that I call epithelial thinning:
Captive-Bred Yellow Tangs - showing HLLE? - CORAL Magazine
I've seen photographs of wild Black Tangs, taken with flash photography, where they show what looks like classic HLLE lesions, but which is simply due to the camera flash.www.reef2rainforest.com
Jay
AKL1950
2500 Club Member
Making me wonder about my Tomini Tang. She was in QT for a month and a half with no problems except a semi aggressive tank mate. After the copper and Prazipro treatments were finished I did a 40% water change and put a carbon filter in the HOB filter. Four days later, she started showing HLLE. Got her to the DT and she recovered, but now her new name is Freckles. Guess she will always have that scar face look. Was it the bully (which wasn’t that bad) or the new carbon filter. I don’t know.
Jetson
Jetson
Jay Hemdal
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Could be from the carbon. Always rinse carbon well before use, and pelleted carbon is much safer than regular soft carbon.
Jay
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AKL1950
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I’m a believer Jay. New guy mistake and didn‘t rinse the cheap carbon filter before I put it in.
I tried a majestic in qt with copper but unfortunately it didn't survive past 3 weeks for some reason. I believe it may have been cyanide poisoning but have no proof. It was doing great and eating a ton. No signs of any disease but just stopped eating and died 2 days later. I have treated many fish with copper and they never developed HLLE. Well actually my coral beauty did but I think it had it before I purchased it.
Based on the studies, is it accurate to say that pelletized carbon (like Seachem Matrix) and the use of a protein skimmer can significantly reduce the chances of carbon related HLLE? Seems like the amount of fines in the system is an important part of the correlation?The carbon connection has been proven in two studies, one by myself and one by the team at Disney.
Head and Lateral Line Erosion (HLLE)
This article discusses studies performed regarding head and lateral line erosion in captive fishes. Specifically, carbon use and nutrition as they relate to this syndrome.
There is a related issue that I call epithelial thinning:
Captive-Bred Yellow Tangs - showing HLLE? - CORAL Magazine
I've seen photographs of wild Black Tangs, taken with flash photography, where they show what looks like classic HLLE lesions, but which is simply due to the camera flash.
Jay
It is hard for me to imagine not using carbon, but I am pretty careful about washing it and almost always use Matrix.
Jay Hemdal
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Yes - from what I've been able to determine, washing the carbon well before use, and relying on pelleted carbon, and using a good protein skimmer helps to a high degree.
Jay
Same here, after spending some time looking into this topic today the shape/size of the ROX 0.8 seems superior and it seems to have a larger range of pore sizes (Matrix is supposedly only "macro pore" bituminous).
