Hoping for some guidance regarding long term nutrient management method

[rocknut]

Hello everyone,

So, I want to apologize upfront because this post/question is probably going to be fairly scattered, but I will do my best organize my thoughts so they make as much sense as possible. Quick bit of background: I restarted my 150 gallon SPS display tank about six weeks ago after a series of failures over the previous 2 1/2 years with the same setup. Over the course of those 2 1/2 years, I dealt with dinoflagelate issues, cyanobacteria issues, low PO4, but very high NO3 issues, etc. I ended up trying Zeovit, Red Sea NO3PO4X, biopellets, and macro algae, but it just seemed like the more I tried, the worse things got. So, anyway, came to the conclusion that I might be better off with a fresh start, and began that process about six weeks ago.

The restart consisted of getting rid of all of the rock and sand, and adding back in 150 pounds of amazing, fresh, live rock from Tampa Bay Saltwater, and an additional 100 pounds of live sand (this provides a 1" - 2" sand bed). My thought process was to abandon all liquid carbon dosing, biopellets, etc, and buy the best quality live rock I could find, run a big skimmer, have good lights, and just take things very slowly, hoping that the rock and sand would be able to take care of the majority of nutrient issues - kind of a return to how tanks were run 10-15 years ago when I was first getting into the hobby. I am currently running the tank with no fish, which is part of my plan of allowing the micro fauna in the tank to take hold free from predators, and plan to keep the tank fish free until the end of the summer (which will be between 4-5 months from when the rock was added to the tank). I am taking a thawed piece of raw shrimp and cutting it into small pieces to feed the various serpent stars, anemones that came with the live rock, etc, twice each week (target feeding, not broadcast feeding).

The tank moved through the initial cycle of Ammonia and Nitrite in about 10 days, which is what I was told to expect by the live rock supplier, at which time NO3 was north of 50, and PO4 was approx. 0.57 (175 ppb). I have used about a cup of GFO, changing out weekly, and this level has slowly dropped over the past three weeks to 0.03 (12 ppb) as of last night, but the NO3 numbers are still above 50 (Red Sea and Salifert test kits). I have been assuming that the NO3 numbers would begin to drop as denitrifying bacteria began to reproduce in the system, but maybe I am wrong? I'm kind of embarrassed, because this isn't my first tank, but is the first non "system" tank like Zeovit, etc, that I have started in a very long time. I did get a few five dollar Montipora frags that I have in the tank that have actually been growing nicely, and showing nice color, kind of to my amazement with NO3 numbers being so high.

With that out of the way, I feel that I have a good filtration system in place: I have a 30" Venturi skimmer (again, return to the old-school), filter socks that are changed every other day, 8 liters of Seachem Matrix in a low flow area of the sump, in a slotted basket, plus the 150 pounds of live rock and the sand. I am also doing 10% water changes each week. I also keep a media bag in the sump with 1 cup of GAC, and have GFO available to run in a reactor. It was my original hope that this would be enough to keep NO3 and PO4 numbers on the low end (not looking for ULNS numbers, just +/- 5 NO3 and >.05 PO4). Does this seem possible, long term? Should I just keep doing what I am doing hoping that these nutrient levels will fall into place in time? If not, and this plan can't keep my nutrient numbers down without help, I guess I need to consider some additional filtration?

Because I am limited with the usable space in and around the tank, a large macro refugium is out (would be my first choice, sticking with my "old school" approach). Here are the other options I am considering:

1. ATS scrubber - seems to be closest to a macro refugium but without the space issue?
2. Carbon dosing - this goes against my original plan, but maybe a milder form such as Prodibio?
3. Sulfer Denitrator - in conjunction with GFO reactor?

So, at this point, are there any opinions on how to move forward? My primary concern is that I don't want to end up in a position when I am jumping around between various nutrient reduction methods, doing "A" one week, then having issues and switching to "B" the next week. This is what went wrong with my last set-up, and what I am desperately trying to avoid this time around - want to keep things as simple as possible, and want to come up with a solid, long term plan that I can stick with.

Thanks in advance for everyone's help!

Rocky

 

[Wilsoni]

Out of your three options, I'd say an ATF would be incredibly beneficial and the safest choice. Sulfer Denitrators are nice but I don't know enough about them, I like the concept though. Carbon dosing in my own experience has been excellent in getting my nitrates down but things can go south quickly from stories that I've read.

You will encounter various opinions as each method is proven to be beneficial so I can understand where you're coming from. Hopefully others will chime in and offer more advice I'm curious to learn more about Sulfer Denitrators myself

 

[Ontheway]

If you can patiently wait about 3 months, siporax might be the way to go. You can vertically stack siporax rings in an eggcrate box and keep it in the sump. They play the role of a lot of live rock, in a small space. But 3 months are necessary for them to start functioning.

 

[rocknut]

Out of your three options, I'd say an ATF would be incredibly beneficial and the safest choice. Sulfer Denitrators are nice but I don't know enough about them, I like the concept though. Carbon dosing in my own experience has been excellent in getting my nitrates down but things can go south quickly from stories that I've read.

You will encounter various opinions as each method is proven to be beneficial so I can understand where you're coming from. Hopefully others will chime in and offer more advice I'm curious to learn more about Sulfer Denitrators myself

Thanks for your response! What methods of carbon dosing have you use(d)? Like I wrote in my post, I've tried a few (but never just vodka, or vinegar), and would have great luck, then would have something go slightly off and have a tank covered in slime, or have half my corals rtn, then get things back up to speed only to have the cycle repeat six months later. Definitely want something as stable as possible this time around. Don't care if my tank looks like it's ready for TOTM, just don't want to kill everything and start over once or twice a year.

I have been reading up on ATS systems, and am strongly considering this route, especially since I wouldn't be relying on it for all of my filtration, but just as a piece of the puzzle.

 

[rocknut]

If you can patiently wait about 3 months, siporax might be the way to go. You can vertically stack siporax rings in an eggcrate box and keep it in the sump. They play the role of a lot of live rock, in a small space. But 3 months are necessary for them to start functioning.

Thanks for reading my post and responding! I am all about patience at this point. . I have read a lot about siporax, and have actually placed about 8 liters of Seachem Matrix in my sump (had a really hard time finding siporax available locally, and affordable).

You can see my slotted bin in the return chamber of my sump with the matrix.

From what I read, the matrix was a close second to the siporax, so figured I would try it. Maybe this will do what it is reported to do in time? Hard to believe, but that would be great.

 

[rocknut]

So after thinking about this a lot today, I'm thinking that maybe I should start up some Prodibio (Biodigest and Bioptim) since I have some leftover from last year. Seems like this should work in concert with the 8 liters of Seachem Matrix in my sump and seed it to work quicker and more effectively? I guess if two or three months go by and things aren't moving in the right direction, I could always add the ATS then? With that in mind, does anyone know if there is an issue stopping the Prodibio once it has been started? Did that with Zeovit once and the tank EXPLODED with cyano...

Anyway, still open to other suggestions?

 

[Ontheway]

Well you are right about performance of matrix. My concern is, in your setup, water will mainly pass over the pile of matrix and will not (or weakly) penetrate to lower/inner portions. Therefore, matrix is generally advised to use with some kind of reactor. You can imagine this not gonna happen with stacked siporax rings in an eggcrate basket.

Just a quick idea here, if you can cut some eggcrate or anything similar to create layers of Matrix stones by placing them, say, every inch or so, this will certainly allow more matrix surface to meet with NO3-rich tank water

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

What are your current nitrate and phosphate values?

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Look out... Matrix can release aluminum. So you might invest in a few Triton tests...

 

[rocknut]

Well you are right about performance of matrix. My concern is, in your setup, water will mainly pass over the pile of matrix and will not (or weakly) penetrate to lower/inner portions. Therefore, matrix is generally advised to use with some kind of reactor. You can imagine this not gonna happen with stacked siporax rings in an eggcrate basket.

Just a quick idea here, if you can cut some eggcrate or anything similar to create layers of Matrix stones by placing them, say, every inch or so, this will certainly allow more matrix surface to meet with NO3-rich tank water

Thanks for this response, because this brings up an area that I could use some additional clarification on. My understanding of this is that running the Matrix in a reactor would help to lower Ammonia and Nitrite, but wouldn't be helpful with denitrification? I was under the impression that you wanted some area of low flow and low oxygen (like the bottom of a deep sand bed, or deep inside the live rock) to produce the anaerobic area needed to lower nitrates? That was my reasoning for placing the Matrix stones into this slotted "bin" in a lower flow area that was after the filter socks and skimmer (to prevent as much detritus as possible). Again, I'm not totally clear on this, so would appreciate any insight.

 

[rocknut]

What are your current nitrate and phosphate values?

Hello Randy, as of last night my NO3 was right around 50 (Red Sea kit and Salifert kit), and my PO4 was 18 ppb with the Hanna ULR Phosphorus checker, which is about 0.05 ppm, I believe? I have been slowly running GFO over the past three weeks to drop the PO4 to this level. The tank has been up and running for six weeks, and I have no fish. I do have a pretty strong clean up crew that came from my live rock supplier, and do feed some small pieces of shrimp to the anemones, serpent stars, decorator crabs, etc, about twice each week - but the total for the entire week is about one piece of small table shrimp.

Also, just to be clear: I don't want to appear impatient with any of this. Certainly not looking for any "magic bullet" approach, or flavor of the month, trendy system. My original plan was to just get the rock in the tank, run the skimmer, and let the tank and all of its bacteria develop over the course of 4-5 months before adding any fish or significant bioload. If the 150 pounds of live rock, live sand, and protein skimmer should be enough to run the tank long term with reasonable nutrient levels, I'm all for that. However, if the tank will most likely need some extra "help" to bring the extra nutrients down, just figure I might as well come up with a plan now.

Again, thanks for reading this, and offering your advice.

 

[rocknut]

Look out... Matrix can release aluminum. So you might invest in a few Triton tests...

Thanks for the heads up. Honestly, I haven't heard this about Matrix before? I thought it was the MarinePure Blocks that were known for that?

 

[Lowell Lemon]

@rocknut
If you are returning to the "old way" why not wait to allow the system to mature on its own instead of trying to "kick" start it and create the same system swing you just reset? With the reset you should stick with your original plan. Your system might be instructive to the rest of us if you just see where it goes without the confusion of multiple methods again. Just a thought.

Siporex is sold by Pentair Aquatics in the United States.

 

[rocknut]

@rocknut
If you are returning to the "old way" why not wait to allow the system to mature on its own instead of trying to "kick" start it and create the same system swing you just reset? With the reset you should stick with your original plan. Your system might be instructive to the rest of us if you just see where it goes without the confusion of multiple methods again. Just a thought.

Siporex is sold by Pentair Aquatics in the United States.

That is a really good point. Honestly, I just didn't expect to see PO4 and NO3 numbers quite that high (the 175 ppb on the Hanna ULR kind of freaked me out). I have also spent a lot of time looking through the tank of the month threads from 5-10 years ago, and although the majority were based around the live rock/big skimmer combo, most were also including some sort of additional filtration like a macro fuge, or something similar. That is what spurred my thought process down this path. But, you hit the nail on the head: I really, really want to avoid going down the route of multiple methods again, if at all possible. Thanks again.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

You could also do partial water changes to bring the levels down. This would be more in line with your reset. I assume you are using a RODI and have tested a fresh salt water mix to see what your sea salt mix is bringing to the table.

@Floyd R Turbo has an ATS you might like for your set up.

 

[rayn]

If you are feeding anything you are adding the nitrates. Sure the tank setup will eliminate some of these, but any animals in there albeit hitchikers are giving off waste.

How is your cuc?

I did carbon dosing in the past and probably will again with vodka. I like it and it kept my nitrates in check, not so much phosphate. Gfo can help with that.

As you've said though, if you want to stay away from adding supplements, a ats may be the way to go for you.

 

[rocknut]

If you are feeding anything you are adding the nitrates. Sure the tank setup will eliminate some of these, but any animals in there albeit hitchikers are giving off waste.

How is your cuc?

I did carbon dosing in the past and probably will again with vodka. I like it and it kept my nitrates in check, not so much phosphate. Gfo can help with that.

As you've said though, if you want to stay away from adding supplements, a ats may be the way to go for you.

Actually have a pretty sizeable clean up crew, as this is part of "The Package" from Tampa Bay Saltwater: about 100 hermits, 50 snails (astrea and cerith), 2 large serpent stars, 2 decorator crabs, 2 peppermint shrimps, not to mention the 20-30 filter feeding Porcelain crabs, and other hitchhikers.

I guess at this point, maybe I just shouldn't be too worried, and should just let the system mature and see what happens? I am a little unclear on how long it should take for the live rock to start processing more of the nitrate by itself? I guess I'll never know what the tank can process on its own unless I just leave it alone? The three SPS frags (2 montis, and 1 birdsnest) actually look really good, and are growing, which makes zero sense to me with sky high nitrates, but?

 

[Cory]

As long as your po4 is enough, an ats will destroy those nitrates.

If you build one, build it 2x the reccomended size.

Mine is working great!

 

[rocknut]

You could also do partial water changes to bring the levels down. This would be more in line with your reset. I assume you are using a RODI and have tested a fresh salt water mix to see what your sea salt mix is bringing to the table.

@Floyd R Turbo has an ATS you might like for your set up.

Agreed on the water changes. Also, I will check again, but I do have new cartridges and DI stages from BRS in my four stage RODI, and am getting 0 TDS water. I have been using a mix of Instant Ocean, and Reef Crystals on this tank (used ESV on my last tank, but didn't want to spend that kind of money again.)

Floyd Turbo is exactly the ATS I was looking at. Wasn't thinking of running the tank solely on that, but figured it might be a good fit to clean up whatever nutrients I can't get with my skimmer, filter socks, and rock.

 

[Nano sapiens]

@rocknut
If you are returning to the "old way" why not wait to allow the system to mature on its own instead of trying to "kick" start it and create the same system swing you just reset? With the reset you should stick with your original plan. Your system might be instructive to the rest of us if you just see where it goes without the confusion of multiple methods again. Just a thought.

Siporex is sold by Pentair Aquatics in the United States.

^^ this...

The most stable systems are typically the simplest. Live rock and live sand have been used for decades for biological filtration and are really all that's needed to run a successful reef tank (a skimmer is optional).

High NO3 is a result of either low numbers of denitrifying bacteria, or bacteria that are not operating effectively. Exporting detritus by periodically cleaning the sand bed and blowing out the live rock helps greatly in reducing NO3 and PO4 by removing organics and allowing sufficient flow into the substrate.