How can I get some abiotic precip in my tank without adding alk?

UK_Pete

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I've succeeded in raising my pH to 8.4, nitrates to 2 ppm, phos 0.01, and run Ca at 550, alk at 9 dkh, salinity 35 ppm, temp 27 C (81 F), but I'm still not getting any abiotic precipitation anywhere in the tank, even on the heater and pumps, and with the low biotic calcium carbonate precip I have, with virtually no coralline, and few frags, I feel in a chicken and egg situation to try to get some calcium precip of some type.

The short question (rational underneath if you want to know) is can anyone think of any ways for me to trigger abiotic precipitation in my tank without raising alk? Like adding really fine calcium carbonate crystals (purple up got me thinking that), or something like that? Although the fine crystals seem like a PITA if they would work and nothing else would I would try it. The only way I can think otherwise without using OH would be electrolysis but it seems like a lot of work to do that safely. I dpnt have enough carbonate consumption to use kalk at the moment.

Reasoning:
I think I need calcium carbonate precip of some type to do 'something' because successful tanks seem to reach a tipping point where things start getting successful once a critical mass of SPS / coralline growth is reached. Unless its something like corals releasing chemicals which stimulate growth, which seem unlikely, then the precipitation of calcium carbonate must be removing something from the water - like organics or phosphate perhaps. I dont know but I would like to trigger some abiotic precipitation in the tank to see if it helps. But I shouldent raise my Ca or alk any further and my pH is optimal it seems.

With the above parameters, most others seem to have abiotic precip problems (if only!). So perhaps something is inhibiting it in my tank. And perhaps that thing is also inhibiting biotic precip in the coralline in my tank and slowing its growth to glacial speeds. And perhaps, as I have read a lot about, something is poisoning the surface of growing precip, so that if I can trigger some abiotic precip, I can bury this contaminant (whatever it is) in the growing abiotic mass of calcium carbonate and get rid of it.
 
Elevated magnesium and organics inhibit it.

Adding some nucleating sites is usually only a one time effect, but it wouldn't hurt to try it.

FWIW, I'm not convinced it will do anything useful if you get it to happen. :)
 
But shouldn’t I be getting at least a bit of abiotic precip at those levels? Mag is around 1300 btw, although the mag test was not salifert but LFS kit (one that required calcium to be subtracted from total to yield mag) so I am not sure its as accurate (not that I think salifert is that accurate).

The scenario I am imagining is that abiotic precip is a bit inhibited by something in the tank, not by something particurarly unusual in tank water but some organic etc perhaps. And with plenty of biotic precip that contaminate is absorbed continually keeping it at low levels, but in low precip tanks its not absorbed so builds up. Is that an unlikely idea?
 
Interesting. First time I've heard of an attempt to initiate abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate.

Since you do have calcifying organisms in the tank, and if they are growing at all, they should be using both Ca and alk.

I have a similar situation, but less severe, where my Ca slowly crept up to 493ppm (per Triton testing) over the years, but my alk remained at ~9 dKh, since that is the primary parameter that I strive to keep stable. I use Kalkwasser, exclusively. To lower the Ca level, over the last couple weeks I've simply dosed a less-than-optimal amount of Kalkwasser while testing for alk each day and using an alkalinity supplement to keep this parameter stable at ~8.5 - 9 dKh. It takes time, but Ca is steadily dropping and when the Ca is at ~420 I'll resume optimal Kalkwasser dosing to maintain both Ca and alk.
 
Forgot to add, if the seed crystals are ground up calcite instead of aragonite would there be any difference?

Don't know, but I'd expect aragonite to work better as that is what will normally precipitate.

FWIW, adding iron may also initiate precipitation. It happens on GFO. :)
 
Thanks Randy, when you say lime powder, do you mean calcium hydroxide or calcium carbonate? I'm aware of the word meaning both of those but I think from the comment about pH you mean calcium hydroxide power? I guess I could get away with this because quite a lot of surface area is provided by only a quite small dose of kalk powder.

Re iron, would it have to be solid iron (like GFO) or would you think iron citrate would do this too? I am probably prohibited from doing either since I have had to increase my phosphate by dosing (its shown good effect on a monti I have) but I'm interested for learning sake.

I know you said you dont think this would have any effect but I just think that in most tanks theres a lot more new surface area being created (or buried). And I notice with friends tanks that those who started with a load of large SPS went straight on to fast growth, where as those who put the odd frag in a LPS tank had no growth or even death. And thats despite other parameters being mostly similar (in the good zone of Ca, alk, Mg, nitrate / phosphate and salinity, although maybe theres other elemental factors that none of my reef friends measured I guess). It just seems that calcification reaches a tipping point where it really takes off. If you were to have a guess would you say this is:

A) Observer bias
B) Growth factors or other positive organics released by the bulk of the SPS
C) Some other factor that having plenty of SPS in the tank causes like removal of small quantities of growth inhibitors in the growing SPS skeletons (or, I guess similar, removal of nitrate / phosphate by the large growing mass of SPS)
D) You disagree with the observation entirely

Thanks, Pete
 
My other thought is freshly ground cc has lots of potential to absorb po4. When it sticks to rocks it will help it grow.
 
The iron may have to be free iron, not chelates, as that is what is known to help nucleate calcium carbonate precipitation.

I do agree there is a point where calcifying organisms grow rapidly, especially coralline. I've usually attributed it to adequately low phosphate and organics (and medium to high alk, calcium, and magnesium), but I don't have much hard data on it.
 
I've wondered if the composition of the rock would speed growth or slow it down.
 
I always though as you said on target parameters should allow good coralline but now I have my params bang on, and the coralline thats there is not growing much if at all, and no spots have appeared. The stuff thats on a few rocks is still alive and healthy looking though. I started dosing kalk milk today though, only about 0.5 to 1 gram a day though, but its enough to see in the water for a few minutes. The plastic effect is weird too, I have observed it too. The only things I can imagine might be holding the coralline back is either something in the water like organics that the coralline dislikes, or something missing thats not normally tested for. But my water changes recently have been close to 100% over about 3 months so the latter seems unlikely.
 

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