How did this happen again?

[ngoodermuth]

I think it looks a bit more like velvet, but considering they are all still alive... I could be wrong and it is just ich.

Copper or CP are my treatments of choice either way. Can treat for 30 days in one QT, or 14 days then transfer to a second sterile QT(preferred).

And of course, 76 days fallow

 

[Reefahholic]

I think it looks a bit more like velvet, but considering they are all still alive... I could be wrong and it is just ich.

Copper or CP are my treatments of choice either way. Can treat for 30 days in one QT, or 14 days then transfer to a second sterile QT(preferred).

And of course, 76 days fallow

Agreed! Copper Power & Chloroquine are both Ich and Velvets worst nightmare.

With anything...there are exceptions. Super strains do exist, but IMO and from what I’ve seen personally, there’s not that many.

 

[MnFish1]

I think it looks a bit more like velvet, but considering they are all still alive... I could be wrong and it is just ich.

Copper or CP are my treatments of choice either way. Can treat for 30 days in one QT, or 14 days then transfer to a second sterile QT(preferred).

And of course, 76 days fallow

After talking to several people - lay and science related - and with all due deference to @HotRocks. a 14 day - and then a sterile tank is not enough. It wasnt enough in the original literature - and according to manufacturers - there are many strains that will get through 14 days - due to dormancy.

 

[Subsea]

The domino damsel has Ich. It’s important that we understand the life cycle of Ich. It typically stays on the fish for 3-7 days. Doing tank transfers will outrun it’s life cycle.

Transfer every 3 days or 72 hours.
Example: Transfer day 1 to QT tank at 5pm.
Transfer day 4 (5pm)
Transfer day 7 (5pm)
Transfer day 10 (5pm)
Transfer day 13 and done. ICH free!

Transfer means to a sterile dry QT with new equipment and new water. Transferring as little water as possible. I let my fish drip in a net or strainer until there’s very little water.

All old equipment needs to be sterilized in bleach solution for a last 1-2 hours. 5 TBSP per 10/G is sufficient after much debate on the issue. Rinse thoroughly and let dry or wipe dry for next session. If you do not have two sets of equipment, you can remove the fish/fishes to a bucket with an air-stone in there so that you can sterilize the current tank and equipment. This will keep the fishes alive for the 1 or 2 hours needed to sterilize.

If doing a 100% water change...always leave fish in the “medicated water.”

Example: Siphon the medicated water into another tank, bucket, bowl, vat, etc. Move the fish with old medicated water until you have your “new medicated water” ready. This allows you to clean the current tank. Or simply buy 2 sets of equipment so that you do not need to move the fish until the new medicated tank is ready and running. The purpose of this is to never leave the fish in water without medication UNTIL YOU ARE READY TO STOP TREATMENT. If you make this mistake the fish can become reinfected and the clock starts over.

While I agree with your logic, I don’t practice quarantine. After 50 years of reefkeeping, I have seen stress as a much greater hazard for fish than all parasites combined.

Because I don’t buy “high end” expensive fish, I consider my ecosystem micro fauna & fana as much much more valuable than a few fish. No matter what vendors claim, anything lethal to ich parasite is harmful to micro invert & bacteria populations. With respect to bacteria, in general, the harmful bacteria proliferate in low oxygen zones and are more resistant to treatments. In healthy bacteria populations, the good bacteria keep the bad bacteria in check but these same good bacteria populations are often eliminated during treatment resulting in runaway bad bacteria populations. In my experiences, this causes more harm than good for the ecosystem. Our glass cages are not a piece of equipment than can be segregated into differrent components of a living, breathing ecosystem that is holistic in nature and should be treated as such.
@Lasse @Paul B and I as well as many others in this hobby and on this hobby forum recognize the holistic nature of our ecosystems as well as recognizing that a healthy immune system is reliant on healthy bacteria populations.

Removing stress from the fishes environment is the best treatment for your fish.

Let’s talk about the 76 fallow days. When I started in the hobby, it was 14 days, but due to unexplained outbreaks of ich 14 is now 76. I know bull when I hear it. If you don’t think that parasites & bactetia will find a way to survive, you know little of 4.5 billion years of evolution in which bactetia, viruses, germs, and parasites adapt & mutate. I can assure you that I haveRed Planaria in one system that have developed an immunity to FW exit and requires 10 fold treatment levels to achieve 100% elimination.

I challenge for anyone to achieve 100% elimination of any one pest without collateral damage to the surrounding ecosystem.

 

[Lasse]

Let us not start a discussion about QT or not in this thread - the damage have happens for @MombasaLionfish and now we must help him/her to have the fish to survive. In this acute crisis - I think that is rather good advises according medicination from different persons here. But I think it is also interesting to find out whats happen and therefore it could be god to have an answer to my post #35

Sincerely Lasse

 

[ngoodermuth]

After talking to several people - lay and science related - and with all due deference to @HotRocks. a 14 day - and then a sterile tank is not enough. It wasnt enough in the original literature - and according to manufacturers - there are many strains that will get through 14 days - due to dormancy.

Dormancy on the fish? Because only the fish is transferred to the second tank. The second set-up should be sterile.

 

[MnFish1]

Dormancy on the fish? Because only the fish is transferred to the second tank. The second set-up should be sterile.

on the fish. The opinion was that though its rare - they have seen it happening more and more - its not related to resistance to copper - its related to duration of treatment - though - they have also seen more strains that require a 'higher than usual' dose to contain them.

 

[ngoodermuth]

on the fish. The opinion was that though its rare - they have seen it happening more and more - its not related to resistance to copper - its related to duration of treatment - though - they have also seen more strains that require a 'higher than usual' dose to contain them.

Did they recommend an alternative treatment duration? Maybe 21 days, to be safe?

Personally, I haven’t had any issues with the 14 day treatment. But, I don’t see why we couldn’t extend the recommendation if it will help prevent the rare “survivors“.

 

[HotRocks]

14 days is enough with a transfer to sterile tank after 14 days of therapeutic treatment... I'm not getting into this again @MnFish1 it's a waste of time and won't add any value to the OP here...

 

[ngoodermuth]

Another thing to keep in mind though, technically the 30 day treatment in a single QT, May not be sufficient either. That’s why the fallow recommendation is 76 days and not 30 days. But, there is a risk versus benefit aspect in the recommendation. Copper for that long would be detrimental to the fish.

This is why a 2 to 3 week minimum observation post-treatment is needed, to be sure the “odd” survival outside of the normal time frame does not slip through.

 

[Subsea]

A final question (I think) What i understand you notise a disease 4 days after adding the new fish + the mandarin. which fish did show the first signs of ich? - The newly added or the old ones? Did the mandarin show any signs? I´m sorry for many questions but I think it is importent to sort out exacly what´s happen in order to find an explanation.

Sincerely Lasse

The OP asked and the title of this thread is how did this happen?

Yet everyone gets anal trying to teach proper quarantine.

Let’s face it, quarantine is invasive and stressful. Both will kill more fish at a much greater percentage than ich or what ever? There is much documented research that stresses kill fish 400%/more than all parasites combined. Fish & shrimp that are exposed to all pathogens have an 80% survival rate compared to 20% survival rate of those that are quarantined/isolated. It’s no different than being inoculated for small pox.

 

[MnFish1]

Did they recommend an alternative treatment duration? Maybe 21 days, to be safe?

Personally, I haven’t had any issues with the 14 day treatment. But, I don’t see why we couldn’t extend the recommendation if it will help prevent the rare “survivors“.

They recommended 3-4 weeks. She is supposed to send me some recommendations.

 

[Reefahholic]

I know all the arguments on both sides. I’ve followed Paul B for years and Snorvich for years. There’s pros and cons on both sides. We won’t go into the reasons why I personally QT and treat my fish. Not on this thread.

While I agree with your logic, I don’t practice quarantine. After 50 years of reefkeeping, I have seen stress as a much greater hazard for fish than all parasites combined.

Because I don’t buy “high end” expensive fish, I consider my ecosystem micro fauna & fana as much much more valuable than a few fish. No matter what vendors claim, anything lethal to ich parasite is harmful to micro invert & bacteria populations. With respect to bacteria, in general, the harmful bacteria proliferate in low oxygen zones and are more resistant to treatments. In healthy bacteria populations, the good bacteria keep the bad bacteria in check but these same good bacteria populations are often eliminated during treatment resulting in runaway bad bacteria populations. In my experiences, this causes more harm than good for the ecosystem. Our glass cages are not a piece of equipment than can be segregated into differrent components of a living, breathing ecosystem that is holistic in nature and should be treated as such.
@Lasse @Paul B and I as well as many others in this hobby and on this hobby forum recognize the holistic nature of our ecosystems as well as recognizing that a healthy immune system is reliant on healthy bacteria populations.

Removing stress from the fishes environment is the best treatment for your fish.

Let’s talk about the 76 fallow days. When I started in the hobby, it was 14 days, but due to unexplained outbreaks of ich 14 is now 76. I know bull when I hear it. If you don’t think that parasites & bactetia will find a way to survive, you know little of 4.5 billion years of evolution in which bactetia, viruses, germs, and parasites adapt & mutate. I can assure you that I haveRed Planaria in one system that have developed an immunity to FW exit and requires 10 fold treatment levels to achieve 100% elimination.

I challenge for anyone to achieve 100% elimination of any one pest without collateral damage to the surrounding ecosystem.

 

[Reefahholic]

After talking to several people - lay and science related - and with all due deference to @HotRocks. a 14 day - and then a sterile tank is not enough. It wasnt enough in the original literature - and according to manufacturers - there are many strains that will get through 14 days - due to dormancy.

Can you tell me the life cycle of Ich and Velvet?

How long do Ich and Velvet stay on the fish?

Can antibiotics prevent a parasite from landing back on the fish? Yes or no?

 

[Reefahholic]

They recommended 3-4 weeks. She is supposed to send me some recommendations.

I’ve been doing 14 days with 3 transfers with therapeutic Copper or CP and it’s been absolutely bulletproof for both Ich and Velvet for a long time now. Neither one has ever slipped through that. I’m not changing anything.

 

[Lasse]

For heaven sake – stop - do not crash this thread - please. Let us instead try to go to the bottom with this and see if there can be anything to learn from this event.

@Subsea I hope that’s you do not think I´m going anal in this thread. IMO - there is too many lose ends yet - it is not even possible to launch a theory (not proven but likely) yet. I want to know just how the symptoms started

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

Can you tell me the life cycle of Ich and Velvet?


Can antibiotics prevent a parasite from landing back on the fish? Yes or no?

1. How long do Ich and Velvet stay on the fish? For CI - after attaching to the fish - they leave within 3-7 days (usually 4-5 days). For velvet it is also 3-7 days. Then CI will encyst - the longest (observed in one study was 72 days) - during which time multiple infectious particles form - and are released they survive 12-24 hours - with infectivity decreasing the longer they do not find a host. Its estimated that 5-20% infectious particles find a host
For velvet there is considerably less research You can google it as well as I can. But - I will mention an article I just read Fish quarantine: current practices in public zoos and aquaria. Which suggested that an observation qt at the national aquarium uses at LEAST a 90 day period because even at 65 days in observation velvet was found to occur.

2. Antibiotics? Thats a loaded question - Based on the definition of 'antibiotics' I would say 'no'. Copper is not usually considered an 'antibiotic'. If you're talking about copper or chloroquine (or other 'antiparasitics') The answer is yes. IF the concentration/dose is high enough - the infectious particle should be killed quickly - after its released from its cyst - and thus 'could not attach to a fish'.

The most recent research suggests (by my verbal communication with various people - as well as a couple authors of papers) - some of the dogma as to dose, and duration that have been being quoted since the 1990s are simply not correct. Fish require longer treatment periods - and perhaps higher doses of medication. Dogma about the life-cycle of CI and velvet is slowly turning out to be incorrect in some cases. (and it only takes one 'case' to crash your tank).

 

[MnFish1]

I’ve been doing 14 days with 3 transfers with therapeutic Copper or CP and it’s been absolutely bulletproof for both Ich and Velvet for a long time now. Neither one has ever slipped through that. I’m not changing anything.

Did anyone ask you to change something? I mean - apologetically, the logic you're using seems faulty. Its the same logic as those that say 'I dont QT at all and its bullet-proof'. Im not changing anything...

I am not criticizing you or what you did (and certainly not suggesting you change something) - but you need to at least consider the possibility that had you 'done nothing' you may have had the same results. (Many people do have the same results doing nothing). That said - if I were doing QT in 2019 - I would be doing a bit of independent research on some of the new strains and issues people are having (perhaps causing QT to fail) - or at least seemingly - having a more open mind to those that are trying to help. JMHO

 

[Lasse]

Please...............

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

Let us not start a discussion about QT or not in this thread - the damage have happens for @MombasaLionfish and now we must help him/her to have the fish to survive. In this acute crisis - I think that is rather good advises according medicination from different persons here. But I think it is also interesting to find out whats happen and therefore it could be god to have an answer to my post #35

Sincerely Lasse

FYI - I apologize (to the OP)- I thought I was on the 'other thread' Didn't want to start another discussion about QT methods. You're getting plenty of good advice.