How do I frag zoas without killing myself?

[BeanAnimal]

Based on picture and most said, gloves glasses, wear a face mask or mouth/nose guard just in case of splash or spray. Good ventilation. Just run A/c. Most inhilation issues I have read is from boiling or being sprayed in face. You could even take an old large aquarium, lay on side and do the work in it as guard. Still wear gloves.

Looks like its on flat surface. So take safety razer go slow and gently to scrape off like you would glass keeping blade flat against the object. Should be able to peel once enough is lifted. Or continue to scrape. Or if not comfortable talk with another local for help. Let us know how it goes.

The context here is that many of the enthusiast think that following that advice is crazy and overblown, because the danger is overblown.

 

[DJF]

Have you seen tank water (especially stuff pulled from near the sand bed - say with a bit of algae or other detritus?

I swear it kinda made me want to

Wouldn’t surprise me if most of us have some oddities living in our gut biome

That entire point is being mindful and treating any paly or zoa like it carries the same level of danger, as we can't positively identify those that are safe and those that are not.

Mishaps... yes, getting squirted in they eye (wear goggles) or absorption through the skin (wear gloves), etc. is the point. Don't let the juice run on the floor where your kid or dog can come in contact. Don't wash the tools in the sink with hot water. Don't touch your face, keep your mouth closed, etc..

This should not be controversial but so many of you are hellbent on pretending that "zoanthids" are not dangerous and "palythoa can be but most aren't" and that you ANY of you can identify ANY of these animals without either genetic testing or positive chain of custody from somebody that did (genetic testing).

Lastly conflating this with other waterborn dangers, or any other danger is pure fallacy. Of course there are other dangerous and deadly things in context to your aquarium and those too should be acknowledged and addressed appropriately in their own context.

not sure where you read in my response that palys are not dangerous; they are dangerous enough that I state the only way to fully prevent palytoxin is to not house palys.

As far as comparing palytoxins to other waterborne dangers- agree to disagree on it being a fallacy. I believe they are comparable under the umbrella of “dangers in keeping a saltwater aquarium”. My point being that most reefers are aware of and tiptoe around palytoxin while I’d bet most of us have had some sort of ill effect caused by, maybe not attributed to, keeping an aquarium in general.

My advice stays the same- always be mindful.

 

[Zeefishies]

Anyway wear gloves and eye protection,
you'll be fine,
U got this! LOL

 

[steveschuerger]

Perfect Zoa/paly gear

 

[BeanAnimal]

Wouldn’t surprise me if most of us have some oddities living in our gut biome

not sure where you read in my response that palys are not dangerous; they are dangerous enough that I state the only way to fully prevent palytoxin is to not house palys.

My context (sorry if it was missed) was that both zoanthids and palythoa have the ability to produce the toxin, and that we can't determine visually which specimens do (or don't) and therefore all should be treated with the same care. Numerous people keep bristling at this point.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Perfect Zoa/paly gear

Maybe not the suit, but the gloves goggles or face shield (eye and mouth) protection would the minimum for most work with them. The eyes are especially vulnerable, but you really should be wearing goggles and gloves when you frag anyway

Aerosolized - not as much of a concern in most cases. That said, if I disturb my palythoa (even in the water) the smell in the fish room does indeed make me sick and the longer that I am exposed, the worse I feel.

 

[Troylee]

Based on picture and most said, gloves glasses, wear a face mask or mouth/nose guard just in case of splash or spray. Good ventilation. Just run A/c. Most inhilation issues I have read is from boiling or being sprayed in face. You could even take an old large aquarium, lay on side and do the work in it as guard. Still wear gloves.

Looks like its on flat surface. So take safety razer go slow and gently to scrape off like you would glass keeping blade flat against the object. Should be able to peel once enough is lifted. Or continue to scrape. Or if not comfortable talk with another local for help. Let us know how it goes.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Would give anything to get to wear one of those...

 

[Tavero]

No need to be aggressive. You can have whatever opinion you wish, but don't conflate it with fact and don't be upset because you didn't get the last word.

You indicated that we were talking past each other. I simply stated that you keep drifting from the point (this post point in case), as well as contradicting your own argument again (limited research means we can't be sure which do and do not carry the toxin, but we know some do).


I am not hiding behind anything. What is an "ornamental zoanthus" lol. You are doing at again, contradicting your own point.

Nonetheless, please review any of the tomes of research by James Reimer, Ludovic Sawelew, et al. and any of a dozen or more scientists with 30+ years of research in the field. Please read this passage from a 2021 palytoxin study. Note the the context - sibling distribution and the last sentence indicating that without genetic testing these animals cannot be positively identified (visual identification is not possible) along with the context that any lineage may produce palytoxin.

You are straying from the point again. Nobody said that those particular "hobby names" were toxic. The larger point is that those hobby names mean nothing due to the fact that numerous siblings (different lineages) can be visually indistinguishable, but may be a lineage that carries the toxin.

The culprit was a zoanthid, not a palythoa - Parazoanthus sp. and the contact was in an aquarium through the fingers. Buy access if you wish, it can't be legally shared or posted. I will provide this basic summary.

When they analyzed the the coral they found extremely high concentrations of palytoxin approaching 3 mg/g.
The subject is lucky he did not die. That concentration is at the top end of what they have found in any paly or zoa from what I can gather form most studies that I have read.


There are threads all over the internet with direct attribution. Moreover, what is "dangerous"? A headache, heart palpitations, diarrhea, asthma, swelling, dizziness, death? There is evidence that cumulative sensitization can happen as well and over time people can have increasingly severe reactions. Additionally, how may cases are unreported, undiagnosed or misdiagnosed? Statistically for any other poisoning like this those numbers are grossly higher than the attributed reporting available by searching the internet.

You logic is based on fallacy.

You are in over your head - It is your choice to decide to learn or to remain obstinate based on whatever reason it is that prevents you from acknowledging the facts at hand.

Not aggressive just running out of patience. You can't just make up your own rules for a discussion and tell others they stray from the point whenever you seem fit. You sadly also lack the knowledge for proper dialogue because:

Zoanthids (order Zoantharia also called Zoanthidea or Zoanthiniaria)...The term "zoanthid" refers to all animals within this order Zoantharia, and should not be confused with "Zoanthus", which is one genus within Zoantharia.
Source: wiki

...a sample of Parazoanthus sp. proved to be extremely active.
Source: your posted paper

That's what I got when I was looking for Parazoanthus.

Parazoanthus isn't considered a zoanthus I was talking about, and you probably wouldn't either. In fact I have never even seen this animal for sale. (And would never ever put it in my tank). Maybe a self collected wild frag?
Parazoanthus sp. isn't even a proper scientific name and due to the lack of pictures of the colony in question, further identification is impossible. But hey they included an absolutely useless ECG print to fill up space and get to three pages. Finally they wrote that patient said he injured his hand on the zoanthid colony. Frankly I don't believe him. I think the injury was there before he started working on his tank. Don't handle corals with injured skin.

I mean I get it. You probably got poisoned by your Palythoa Grandis colony and want to warn other reefers. That's fine.
But you need to understand just because you messed up and introduced a very toxic animal into your tank that now you can't get rid of, doesn't mean the rest of us did too. We are fine.

 

[Rappa]

Dang! Past 20 years - And here I am gluing polyps to rocks with a razor blade and bare fingers, sometimes while eating a slice of pizza, and maybe smoking a cigar! Then peeling the dried up super glue off of my fingers with my teeth! I guess I need to read up on some stuff! It would appear that I am lucky I'm not dead...