How do we define a true grafted coral?

[Opus]

Saw this going on in the for sale section and it got me thinking. How do we define a grafted coral? Is it just cutting 2 different colors and getting them to combine or does it actually require any frags to also exhibit the "graft". I know Scott at Unique Corals had experimented with scolys several years ago by cutting them in half and combining different ones with some of them appearing to fuse. Never heard if there was long term success. What little I could find out, it appears that in lps, even though they may appear to grow together, that long term they will most likely split apart. I'm actually really shocked we haven't seen more "grafts" being sold. I guess based on what I saw today, it may just become the next "thing".

 

[duberii]

I believe grafting requires the exchanging of pigment- two corals touching could just form a hard line, whereas if the instructions for how to build a certain pigment are exchanged, a coral could develop either color at any point in its growth (or both colors I'd assume), thus forming a jagged line. From my undertanding, that's why some grafted montis have a spot of one color that is entirely surrounded by the other color in a section that is new growth. The coral has to be capable of exhibiting both color forms, which is why zoa gardens or most (?) acan gardens or euphyllia gardens aren't considered grafted, even if the flesh fuses somehow.

Sorry if this doesn't make sense- I'm not an expert in grafting- just another interested hobbyist)

 

[Opus]

I believe grafting requires the exchanging of pigment- two corals touching could just form a hard line, whereas if the instructions for how to build a certain pigment are exchanged, a coral could develop either color at any point in its growth (or both colors I'd assume), thus forming a jagged line. From my undertanding, that's why some grafted montis have a spot of one color that is entirely surrounded by the other color in a section that is new growth. The coral has to be capable of exhibiting both color forms, which is why zoa gardens or most (?) acan gardens or euphyllia gardens aren't considered grafted, even if the flesh fuses somehow.

Sorry if this doesn't make sense- I'm not an expert in grafting- just another interested hobbyist)

Going off your monti example, lets take the famous WWC grafted monti that has been around for years. I have been told that if you don't get a piece that already has both colors present then you will never get the other color. If true, does that mean it is truelly grafted? Several years ago I acquired a piece of starburst monti which I was told had lineage back to the original. After it started to really take off I started to notice these purplish streaks in it, which made me doubt it was a true starburst. After doing some research I found out the original piece also exhibited this same trait. About a year later I started seeing vendors selling pieces with the purple in it as "grafted" starburst and asking double to triple the normal price.

 

[duberii]

Going off your monti example, lets take the famous WWC grafted monti that has been around for years. I have been told that if you don't get a piece that already has both colors present then you will never get the other color. If true, does that mean it is truelly grafted? Several years ago I acquired a piece of starburst monti which I was told had lineage back to the original. After it started to really take off I started to notice these purplish streaks in it, which made me doubt it was a true starburst. After doing some research I found out the original piece also exhibited this same trait. About a year later I started seeing vendors selling pieces with the purple in it as "grafted" starburst and asking double to triple the normal price.

From what I've heard, a true grafted coral wouldn't need both colors to be present in order to grow and develop them- that's why (assuming the purple was a third grafted coral and not just a natural development of the red or green Monti) that purple would be able to develop even when there was little to no purple on the original frag. That assumption is a bit shaky because the frag likely wasn't showing
Here's an example of what I'd call a fully grafted coral: (From WWC)

I believe if you were to split this frag anywhere, it would continue to grow with both colors , since the pigment was actually exchanged between the two corals. Notice how there's spots of red that are entirely surrounded by green and vice versa, meaning that there had to be the ability to produce both pigments.
Whereas of you look at this, it appears that there is very little exchanging of pigment, meaning that this one may not be fully grafted yet (It very well could be and just have a growth pattern that's different from the one above, but just for the sake of example, assume this one was freshly grafted, meaning the two corals were cut and placed together and now grew together).

In this case, I would guess that if you took a piece off of the far right, it would grow into a fully red colony. If you took a piece off of the far left, it would result in an all green colony. In this case, although it grew together, I would say it's not truly grafted because the only section that has exchanged pigment (if at all) is at that intersection. That's very different from that first frag, where even if you broke off an all green section, chances are there will still be some red mixed in there. Now if you took a piece of that intersection, those two corals could either just grow together and form a hard line without exchanging pigment, or they could graft.

Long explanation short- To answer your question, if a coral needs both colors to be present to maintain those 2 colors, I don't believe they are truly grafted together.

But I'm a non-expert on this so my opinion is just as good as any other hobbyist- don't take this as fact until we can get a true expert's confirmation lol.

 

[Opus]

But I'm a non-expert on this so my opinion is just as good as any other hobbyist- don't take this as fact until we can get a true expert's confirmation lol.

That is how I would define a true grafted coral also, but who knows. I guess you and I are the only ones who are responding. Based on the heated exchange in the for sale thread I thought I might get more responses.

I guess it becomes harder to say with lps. In the sale thread the person had taken 2 color torches and cut them in half and then put the 2 different ones together and they appear to have grafted. My take is if it is truly grafted then a year from now it should still be fused and I would think it should produce some more heads with the same 2 different colors. I just don't know if I'm off base on that line of thinking. What little I found about it was about a decade old and it just said most of the time the pieces would eventually start to grow apart.

 

[duberii]

That is how I would define a true grafted coral also, but who knows. I guess you and I are the only ones who are responding. Based on the heated exchange in the for sale thread I thought I might get more responses.

I guess it becomes harder to say with lps. In the sale thread the person had taken 2 color torches and cut them in half and then put the 2 different ones together and they appear to have grafted. My take is if it is truly grafted then a year from now it should still be fused and I would think it should produce some more heads with the same 2 different colors. I just don't know if I'm off base on that line of thinking. What little I found about it was about a decade old and it just said most of the time the pieces would eventually start to grow apart.

It does appear that new growth is the way to determine if a graft was successful. Since LPS are more slow growing, I'd agree that it's harder to tell with them. Scolies and fungias can be grafted, but because new growth is slow and doesn't form new polyps, I don't think a full graft is possible. As for the torch, I think I've seen some of those "splatter paint" torches (I don;t remember what they're called), but those might not be grafted- who knows. I doubt any grafted euphyllia would keep that half and half color formation as new heads grow- it would probably become more tie dye.

 

[Opus]

It does appear that new growth is the way to determine if a graft was successful. Since LPS are more slow growing, I'd agree that it's harder to tell with them. Scolies and fungias can be grafted, but because new growth is slow and doesn't form new polyps, I don't think a full graft is possible. As for the torch, I think I've seen some of those "splatter paint" torches (I don;t remember what they're called), but those might not be grafted- who knows. I doubt any grafted euphyllia would keep that half and half color formation as new heads grow- it would probably become more tie dye.

Correct, the 2 colors should still remain in some form. That is kind of where my issue lied in the sale thread. He was charging a huge amount for something I don't think was proven at this point. It just appeared to be grafted. If he was selling heads that had formed off the original then great. Of course it is buyer beware. I'm just wondering if we will start seeing more of this based on the amount of money that was paid. Or maybe not, maybe the risk is too high in losing both pieces.

 

[Opus]

@jguerin88 since you replied in the sale thread, what is your take on grafting? I'm not part of the facebook group you mentioned so do they think the torch would not grow any new heads that exhibited the "graft"?

 

[Opus]

@jguerin88 since you replied in the sale thread, what is your take on grafting? I'm not part of the facebook group you mentioned so do they think the torch would not grow any new heads that exhibited the "graft"?

Wrong symbol that should be #jguerin88

 

[jguerin88]

@jguerin88 since you replied in the sale thread, what is your take on grafting? I'm not part of the facebook group you mentioned so do they think the torch would not grow any new heads that exhibited the "graft"?

yeah that’s not going to exhibit a the same colors if it grew new heads , that coral was 2 $50 torches that were cut in half and fused together via super glue .

here is a good article for you to review http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/nftt/index.php

basically what happened in the euphyilla group on fb was that kid who sold the torch was arguing and fighting with admins about the torch and his pricing and then he left . i won’t get into specifics but it was cool with what he did

 

[Oceanboys]

IMO I think that was a fused torch in the sale thread. Based off of what I know “grafted” coral are the ones that share infused proteins (as mentioned above) and fused coral are just coral that are pushed together not exhibiting any color change.

 

[jguerin88]

IMO I think that was a fused torch in the sale thread. Based off of what I know “grafted” coral are the ones that share infused proteins (as mentioned above) and fused coral are just coral that are pushed together not exhibiting any color change.

exactly , that torch was not grafted , he crafted it . cut in half at the mouth on both torches and fused with super glue . grafted would be if those torches had different color tentacles mixed on both sides . but that kid is upset combative and thinks he knows all so he doesn’t want to listen to others opinions or factual info

 

[F i s h y]

From what I've heard, a true grafted coral wouldn't need both colors to be present in order to grow and develop them- that's why (assuming the purple was a third grafted coral and not just a natural development of the red or green Monti) that purple would be able to develop even when there was little to no purple on the original frag. That assumption is a bit shaky because the frag likely wasn't showing
Here's an example of what I'd call a fully grafted coral: (From WWC)

I believe if you were to split this frag anywhere, it would continue to grow with both colors , since the pigment was actually exchanged between the two corals. Notice how there's spots of red that are entirely surrounded by green and vice versa, meaning that there had to be the ability to produce both pigments.
Whereas of you look at this, it appears that there is very little exchanging of pigment, meaning that this one may not be fully grafted yet (It very well could be and just have a growth pattern that's different from the one above, but just for the sake of example, assume this one was freshly grafted, meaning the two corals were cut and placed together and now grew together).

In this case, I would guess that if you took a piece off of the far right, it would grow into a fully red colony. If you took a piece off of the far left, it would result in an all green colony. In this case, although it grew together, I would say it's not truly grafted because the only section that has exchanged pigment (if at all) is at that intersection. That's very different from that first frag, where even if you broke off an all green section, chances are there will still be some red mixed in there. Now if you took a piece of that intersection, those two corals could either just grow together and form a hard line without exchanging pigment, or they could graft.

Long explanation short- To answer your question, if a coral needs both colors to be present to maintain those 2 colors, I don't believe they are truly grafted together.

But I'm a non-expert on this so my opinion is just as good as any other hobbyist- don't take this as fact until we can get a true expert's confirmation lol.

This link helped me get a more clear idea.

 

[Opus]

exactly , that torch was not grafted , he crafted it . cut in half at the mouth on both torches and fused with super glue . grafted would be if those torches had different color tentacles mixed on both sides . but that kid is upset combative and thinks he knows all so he doesn’t want to listen to others opinions or factual info

Did he ever mention how long it had been since he had done the "grafting"? It sounded like he sold it locally. I hope he didn't sell it to someone that comes after him if it starts to grow apart.

 

[jguerin88]

Did he ever mention how long it had been since he had done the "grafting"? It sounded like he sold it locally. I hope he didn't sell it to someone that comes after him if it starts to grow apart.

he did it like two weeks ago , the survival rate on euphyilla like that isn’t high that’s why he didn’t use expensive torches / that’s also why a lot of people arnt already doing that