How does Prime detoxify ammonia and nitrite?

[Malcontent]

On freshwater forums, I've seen people claim to have done the test with the ammonia alert. Some said it worked, some say it didn't. So I'm waiting for better data on a subject I really don't care about.

API, to their credit, at least released a short paper documenting in vitro experiments on gill tissue. I think ammonia kills primarily by CNS effects rather than gill damage though.

 

[Tony Thompson]

I inadvertently wondered into this topic when I used the Seneye device to observe ammonia reduction/detoxification with Prime. I did the experiment twice because of the unexpected results. I started a discussion with Seachem and will conduct additional experiments using Seachem’s ammonia badge. @taricha is also very kindly conducting a few experiments. At the point that I feel discussions with Seachem tech support have hit a brick wall, I will share the lab results. The claim the Prime and other products detoxify nitrite and nitrate are too over the top to even debate.

I have no reason to believe any of the statements given by some of these product suppliers. Unless they give a full and comprehensive description of the experiment they carried out.

If no replication of the data can be achieved by any number of participants using the exact same procedure and controls then the whole statement can in my opinion be disregarded.

However if the same set of data is replicated within a relative margin of deviation. That is the point that the detection methods and any possible interference in that data should be further investigated and reviewed.

I also have no real interest in finding a chemical solution to reducing NO2 or NO3- levels in my marine systems. I find biological controls in the form of the complex mix of archaea and bacterial biome that seems to inhibit our aquariums despite our intervention do an excellent job themselves.

My aim was to ascertain whether there was definite link in the general composition between the previous products claiming to reduce NH3 and the newer products marketing the additional reduction in NO2 and NO3-

I thoroughly respect and highly value the opinion of @Randy Holmes-Farley. However, with regards the composition of Seachem Prime, I am of the opinion that the obvious similarities in statements between representatives of both Seachem and Fritz Ind combined with the same bold and contentious claims with regards NO2 , NO3- and the release dates of the relevant patent application, would lead me to strongly suspect that both products (maybe including a third product) are based on the same principle ingredients.

@Dan_P , coincidently I am currently reading through one of your previous post with regards using the Hanna colorimeter for detecting levels of (TAN). Fascinating work by yourself and @taricha. Would be really great full for advice on that matter as I find it indispensable to have an alternative to the usual colour card tests.

With regards Senye, I was one of the early adopters of their device. Over the years I have noticed a number of discrepancies in the data it was producing and also had strong suspicion that they where certain conditions that would cause serious interference with the devices ability to calculate NH4+ NH3.

It seams nitrogen can be wily old fox at times

 

[Malcontent]

Just as a point of relevance, @Malcontent , rather than carrying out your own set of procedures, would it not be more valuable to first carry out the experiment using the same procedure as Furlough and Senkevech. I would think the first test should be to try and replicate the same results as claimed using the same controls.

No, I would not want to make the same mistake as Furlough and Senkevech and Kordon and use colorimetric test methods.

 

[george7523]

Hi, I recently set up a 40 gallon water reservoir to serve as water source for paludarium misting system and auto water change system. To produce the product water, I only used 1)spectrapure sediment, 2)pentair carbon 3) pentair chlorplus 10 ( my city uses chloramine). As they are for freshwater fish tanks, no RODI filters were used as they would have removed macro/micro nutrients essential to plants. After using the water reservoir for a few weeks, my fish started dying. I lost five in total. I found out that ammonia is more then likely the culprit, because it would have started accumulating in the reservoir after the chlorplus 10 breaks down chloramine leaving behind ammonia. I have verified this using Hanna low range ammonia checker. I thought the solution was to dose seachem prime to "bind" the ammonia in the reservoir every 48 hours, so I bought a doser and 2L of prime. Now that I read all the posts and aquariumscience.org article in regards to how prime and other similar products are just marketing scams in their claims to detoxify ammonia. I'm uncertain on how to proceed.

here are my findings using Hanna ammonia and total chlorine checker.

Incidentally, I emailed Hanna to ask if the ammonia checker hi700 would be able to detect ammonia after prime has been added. This is their reply from their chemist :

From what I can tell through online information, Sea Chem Prime Dechlorinator converts the ammonia into ammonium (since ammonium is the safer form for aquarium organisms). In this case, the HI700 Ammonia Checker will not detect the ammonium present. The Nessler reagent only reacts with ammonia in the sample.

--- tap water ---
total chlorine : 1.23 ppm
ammonia : 0.26

--- tap water after adding prime ---
ammonia : > 3.00 ppm

--- tap water after pentair carbon/chlorplus 10 filters ---
total chlorine : 0.00 ppm
ammonia : 0.41

--- tap water after pentair carbon/chlorplus 10 filters and adding prime ---
ammonia : > 3.00 ppm

question :
1) I ended up adding a cannister filter to my water reservoir in the hopes that the beneficial bacteria would develope eventually and start consuming the ammonia left there by the filters. To the cannister filter, ironically I added seachem matrix, and seachem stability. The idea is as bacteria grow over time in matrix, the would start consuming ammonia produced by the filters. The reservoir gets refilled about once a week, so new source of ammonia gets added in that time as well. How feasible is this idea to get rid of ammonia ?

2) If this is not feasible, can someone give some input on how to deal with this ammonia issue in the water reservoir ? How about lowering the ph by co2 injection and thereby converting ammonia into ammonium ?

3) can ammonium be consumed by biomedia bacteria ?

thank you very much for any input.


- George

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Hi, I recently set up a 40 gallon water reservoir to serve as water source for paludarium misting system and auto water change system. To produce the product water, I only used 1)spectrapure sediment, 2)pentair carbon 3) pentair chlorplus 10 ( my city uses chloramine). As they are for freshwater fish tanks, no RODI filters were used as they would have removed macro/micro nutrients essential to plants. After using the water reservoir for a few weeks, my fish started dying. I lost five in total. I found out that ammonia is more then likely the culprit, because it would have started accumulating in the reservoir after the chlorplus 10 breaks down chloramine leaving behind ammonia. I have verified this using Hanna low range ammonia checker. I thought the solution was to dose seachem prime to "bind" the ammonia in the reservoir every 48 hours, so I bought a doser and 2L of prime. Now that I read all the posts and aquariumscience.org article in regards to how prime and other similar products are just marketing scams in their claims to detoxify ammonia. I'm uncertain on how to proceed.

here are my findings using Hanna ammonia and total chlorine checker.

Incidentally, I emailed Hanna to ask if the ammonia checker hi700 would be able to detect ammonia after prime has been added. This is their reply from their chemist :


--- tap water ---
total chlorine : 1.23 ppm
ammonia : 0.26

--- tap water after adding prime ---
ammonia : > 3.00 ppm

--- tap water after pentair carbon/chlorplus 10 filters ---
total chlorine : 0.00 ppm
ammonia : 0.41

--- tap water after pentair carbon/chlorplus 10 filters and adding prime ---
ammonia : > 3.00 ppm

question :
1) I ended up adding a cannister filter to my water reservoir in the hopes that the beneficial bacteria would develope eventually and start consuming the ammonia left there by the filters. To the cannister filter, ironically I added seachem matrix, and seachem stability. The idea is as bacteria grow over time in matrix, the would start consuming ammonia produced by the filters. The reservoir gets refilled about once a week, so new source of ammonia gets added in that time as well. How feasible is this idea to get rid of ammonia ?

2) If this is not feasible, can someone give some input on how to deal with this ammonia issue in the water reservoir ? How about lowering the ph by co2 injection and thereby converting ammonia into ammonium ?

3) can ammonium be consumed by biomedia bacteria ?

thank you very much for any input.


- George

I do not think the person responding for Hanna has an accurate understanding of ammonia chemistry and I’d ignore the comments from them.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Ammonia can be removed by many organisms, from bacteria to corals.

That said, I’m not seeing how you get to 3 ppm ammonia from that tap water. Maybe get a cheap ammonia test kit to validate the reading.

Long term, using a deionizing resin is the way to remove it.

 

[Malcontent]

Hi, I recently set up a 40 gallon water reservoir to serve as water source for paludarium misting system and auto water change system. To produce the product water, I only used 1)spectrapure sediment, 2)pentair carbon 3) pentair chlorplus 10 ( my city uses chloramine). As they are for freshwater fish tanks, no RODI filters were used as they would have removed macro/micro nutrients essential to plants. After using the water reservoir for a few weeks, my fish started dying. I lost five in total. I found out that ammonia is more then likely the culprit, because it would have started accumulating in the reservoir after the chlorplus 10 breaks down chloramine leaving behind ammonia. I have verified this using Hanna low range ammonia checker. I thought the solution was to dose seachem prime to "bind" the ammonia in the reservoir every 48 hours, so I bought a doser and 2L of prime. Now that I read all the posts and aquariumscience.org article in regards to how prime and other similar products are just marketing scams in their claims to detoxify ammonia. I'm uncertain on how to proceed.

here are my findings using Hanna ammonia and total chlorine checker.

Incidentally, I emailed Hanna to ask if the ammonia checker hi700 would be able to detect ammonia after prime has been added. This is their reply from their chemist :


--- tap water ---
total chlorine : 1.23 ppm
ammonia : 0.26

--- tap water after adding prime ---
ammonia : > 3.00 ppm

--- tap water after pentair carbon/chlorplus 10 filters ---
total chlorine : 0.00 ppm
ammonia : 0.41

--- tap water after pentair carbon/chlorplus 10 filters and adding prime ---
ammonia : > 3.00 ppm

question :
1) I ended up adding a cannister filter to my water reservoir in the hopes that the beneficial bacteria would develope eventually and start consuming the ammonia left there by the filters. To the cannister filter, ironically I added seachem matrix, and seachem stability. The idea is as bacteria grow over time in matrix, the would start consuming ammonia produced by the filters. The reservoir gets refilled about once a week, so new source of ammonia gets added in that time as well. How feasible is this idea to get rid of ammonia ?

2) If this is not feasible, can someone give some input on how to deal with this ammonia issue in the water reservoir ? How about lowering the ph by co2 injection and thereby converting ammonia into ammonium ?

3) can ammonium be consumed by biomedia bacteria ?

thank you very much for any input.

Nessler test kits are nearly useless due to the strong positive interference when many dechlorinator products are used. You don't really have 3 mg/L ammonia or ammonium. Like the salicylate method, the Nessler method increases the pH of the sample quite high so any ammonium would be converted to ammonia.

Monochloramine is formed by adding chlorine and ammonia in a 4-5:1 ratio and there's no way you have 15 mg/L chlorine.

In the past I've used nitrification to consume the ammonia or used clinoptilolite to adsorb it but lately I've been doing nothing as the ammonia levels are only slightly higher than the post-feeding spike in my tank (0.3 mg/L).

I can't tell you why your fish are dying but I'm not sure it's due to the ammonia. I'd be curious what your pH is and it might be a good idea to test with a salicylate method. Even with the API test it should be readily apparent whether you have ~0.25 or 3 mg/L total ammonia.