How fast should I rise nitrates?

[Coling]

Hi all,

I purchased a Hanna nitrate checker this weekend and discovered my nitrates are super low (0-0.3 ppm). My phosphates are around 0.1 ppm. A few smooth skin Acros have TN’d lately and I am thinking this imbalance may be the cause.

I’d like to increase my nitrates to somewhere in the 5-10 ppm range. How gradually should I increase the nitrates as to not tick off my Acros?

Cheers,

Colin

 

[jda]

Why do you want to raise them? The reason will matter. You might not be able to if you have a strong population of anoxic bacteria in the rocks and sand. You also probably don't need to unless you want to growth limit (poison) dinos or diatoms. The coral can get all of the nitrogen that they need from ammonia and ammonium and are not efficient at using nitrate to get nitrogen anyway - the cost is very high to convert nitrate into a usable form. ...so if you want to get your corals more nitrogen, then feed the fish more. If you are already feeding a good amount, then this is not likely your issue.

 

[PapaBear941]

Why do you want to raise them? The reason will matter. You might not be able to if you have a strong population of anoxic bacteria in the rocks and sand. You also probably don't need to unless you want to growth limit (poison) dinos or diatoms. The coral can get all of the nitrogen that they need from ammonia and ammonium and are not efficient at using nitrate to get nitrogen anyway - the cost is very high to convert nitrate into a usable form. ...so if you want to get your corals more nitrogen, then feed the fish more. If you are already feeding a good amount, then this is not likely your issue.

what if its a no fish system? I am dealing with the same sort of issue, 0 phos and 0 nitrates, in a fishless system, and I have corals (LPS) struggling as a result.

 

[jda]

You are better off doing ammonium/ammonia to the front end rather than doing nitrate on the backend... for system with fish or fishless. For fishless systems, some type of phosphate might be a good idea to get the level up to 3-10 ppb, or so... you don't need more than that.

Some corals can convert nitrate for their symbionts (zoox) to use and some cannot. Even the ones that can convert it is estimated that like 30-60% more energy is needed to do so.

 

[Coling]

I’ve heard anecdotal evidence that a ratio of 50-100/1 nitrate to phosphate is ideal for Acropora (Mike Poletta and a few others have made this connection). I’ve kept Acros for years now and started to lose some priced smooth skins over the last couple months. The survivors do need seem to show any signs of stress and are as colorful and happy looking as ever.

I’m not sure if there is any correlation between my undetectable nitrates and death, but I figured increasing my nitrates would be a good idea anyway. I’ve always had 2-5 ppm nitrates and not sure why they bottomed out? And I know there are plenty of successful low nutrient tanks, I just don’t like the idea of relatively high phosphates (.1ish)and undetectable nitrates.

And I’m not having any issues w Dinos and feed my fish a ton

 

[SamMule]

If your nutrients aren't "balanced", maybe you need to change your feeding regimen?
Rather than feeding less, or dosing something, try feeding food with a lower phosphorus content.
Just a suggestion, before you start dumping bottles of stuff into your tank!

 

[131696]

.1 phosphates ,you need 10 nitrates. Just feed fish and watch phosphates don't get higher nitrates will.look for the ratio.

 

[Coling]

I have the following fish in my 150 gallon: yellow tang, leopard wrasse, opossom wrasse, cleaner wrasse, clownfish, firefish, bimac anthias, blue eyed cardinal, mandarin, starry blenny, orchid dotty back and azure damsel. I feed them a cube of fish eggs, 2x cubes of spirulina brine, and about a 50 cent piece size chunk (probably equivalent of 1.5-2 cubes?) of Hikari mysis everyday (I work from home most days so feed throughout the day) . I feel like that is a lot of food for a dozen relatively small fish, and I would assume that an excessive amount of fish food would lead to an increase of nitrates rather than phosphates? but guess not

I feed my corals amino acids, Oyster feast and Benereef once or twice a week: . I assume that these coral foods and aminos probably are contributing to my higher phosphates, but I would be happy with these phosphate levels if my nitrates were in a higher ranger.

@125 I'm not sure my fish can eat anymore. I would much rather increase nitrates with fish food, but don't think that is an option. I'm planning to add a group of chromis to increase bioload, but we will see how long the group stays a group.

I know several vendors who dose nitrates with great results and I think this is probably the best way to get my levels where I want them. Just not sure how risky it is to go from 0 ppm to 5-10 ppm in a hurry.

 

[nereefpat]

I mostly browse the SPS forum to learn, only chiming in if someone needs help with T5s or kalk or something else I'm good at.

I can't ever wrap my head around dosing nitrate and phosphate, and that people ever have levels that are much higher than natural seawater. My tanks always level off near zero for both. When I've tried dosing either, they just drop back to near zero, and there are unintended consequences along the way. If I dose nitrates, they drop within a day, and dinos take off. If I dose phosphate, I get cyano and hair algae.

Do people who dose sodium phosphate/nitrate actually get their tanks to change? Mine doesn't.

 

[GarrettT]

Do people who dose sodium phosphate/nitrate actually get their tanks to change? Mine doesn't.

Sand and rock likely absorbing it. You have to keep at it until you reach equilibrium. Kalk will lower p04 as well.

 

[nereefpat]

Sand and rock likely absorbing it. You have to keep at it until you reach equilibrium. Kalk will lower p04 as well.

I agree sand/rock absorb the phosphate. I've also heard that about kalk. If it's true, precipitating some kind of calcium phosphate I would guess?

For nitrate, that isn't absorbed into rock/sand. Although I think my rock and sand processes it.

If I dosed enough of each, and kept on dosing it, I could probably see some rise in N&P. But my tank does not like it, and I don't have big enough problems that require me to make drastic changes.

 

[ReefGeezer]

I think maybe there isn't a proper "balance" of inorganic N & P. I know... Redfields and all that... but let me ask a question.

Can there be an imbalance N & P in systems not limited by carbon, when both inorganic N & P are detectable at any level? I would think that if a one or another nutrient was limiting, it would be 0 because the organisms would use it until it was gone. I'd would deduce that should yield a 0 test reading on one and a rising trend on the other.

I'm not sure how it works, but could a system, particularly a fishless system, be carbon limited instead?

 

[Dlealrious]

I mostly browse the SPS forum to learn, only chiming in if someone needs help with T5s or kalk or something else I'm good at.

I can't ever wrap my head around dosing nitrate and phosphate, and that people ever have levels that are much higher than natural seawater. My tanks always level off near zero for both. When I've tried dosing either, they just drop back to near zero, and there are unintended consequences along the way. If I dose nitrates, they drop within a day, and dinos take off. If I dose phosphate, I get cyano and hair algae.

Do people who dose sodium phosphate/nitrate actually get their tanks to change? Mine doesn't.

I ran near 0's with my last 2 scapes. No issues really, just add amino and feed fish. I wouldn't run skimmer or any form of nutrient export that way food and poo breaks down and feeds coral

 

[jda]

Feed heavy and export heavy. No issues with this approach ever. Just doing on or the other can be harmful, but if you are going to export heavy without feeding heavy it is best to leave it to natural methods which will never strip the water loo low like chemicals and media can.

Redfield has been long explained as myth for what we do and does not apply beyond that one substance that was studied. Dr. Holmes-Farley has said many times that ratios are meaningless.

Available > residual. I know that people cannot test available building blocks and that they can be harder to understand, but like most else in life, this is where the important stuff happens.

 

[Big E]

Feed heavy and export heavy. No issues with this approach ever. Just doing on or the other can be harmful, but if you are going to export heavy without feeding heavy it is best to leave it to natural methods which will never strip the water loo low like chemicals and media can.

Redfield has been long explained as myth for what we do and does not apply beyond that one substance that was studied. Dr. Holmes-Farley has said many times that ratios are meaningless.

Available > residual. I know that people cannot test available building blocks and that they can be harder to understand, but like most else in life, this is where the important stuff happens.

I have problems with Randy whenever he mentions ratios mean nothing because he doesn't interpret them the same way I do.

I agree with him on the Redfield ratio part and dismissed the RR theory over 15 years ago.

 

[Dburr1014]

I have the following fish in my 150 gallon: yellow tang, leopard wrasse, opossom wrasse, cleaner wrasse, clownfish, firefish, bimac anthias, blue eyed cardinal, mandarin, starry blenny, orchid dotty back and azure damsel. I feed them a cube of fish eggs, 2x cubes of spirulina brine, and about a 50 cent piece size chunk (probably equivalent of 1.5-2 cubes?) of Hikari mysis everyday (I work from home most days so feed throughout the day) . I feel like that is a lot of food for a dozen relatively small fish, and I would assume that an excessive amount of fish food would lead to an increase of nitrates rather than phosphates? but guess not

I feed my corals amino acids, Oyster feast and Benereef once or twice a week: . I assume that these coral foods and aminos probably are contributing to my higher phosphates, but I would be happy with these phosphate levels if my nitrates were in a higher ranger.

@125 I'm not sure my fish can eat anymore. I would much rather increase nitrates with fish food, but don't think that is an option. I'm planning to add a group of chromis to increase bioload, but we will see how long the group stays a group.

I know several vendors who dose nitrates with great results and I think this is probably the best way to get my levels where I want them. Just not sure how risky it is to go from 0 ppm to 5-10 ppm in a hurry.

I have dosed 1.5 ppm in one dose with no ill effects.
Like you, I am at 0.1 po4 and almost 0 no3. After weeks of dosing, I checked a couple days ago, I was at 2ppm no3 /0.8 po4.
Lps/sps mixed w/ a clam and nems. I don't feed a ton, I use Kalk, use chato and started to passively use gfo.
I just beat dinos and gha has been creeping in. I have stopped the progression but need to push it back. Next I'm going to feed nps Probio. (just discovered this today)
So I think, that low nitrates limit the ability for the chato to take up phosphates. When I dose nitrate my chato gets a growth spurt. Hoping this is resolved soon but I definatly don’t want my phosphates to drop to quickly or bottom out.

 

[Biologic]

Feed heavy and export heavy. No issues with this approach ever. Just doing on or the other can be harmful, but if you are going to export heavy without feeding heavy it is best to leave it to natural methods which will never strip the water loo low like chemicals and media can.

Redfield has been long explained as myth for what we do and does not apply beyond that one substance that was studied. Dr. Holmes-Farley has said many times that ratios are meaningless.

Available > residual. I know that people cannot test available building blocks and that they can be harder to understand, but like most else in life, this is where the important stuff happens.

So I read in another thread, and I agree with you. However, is testing for PO4 with common test kits, essentially unless? I see that you call them fools gold, and that could be true. Is there any use?

Also, if I adjust my levels from 0.00 PO4, measuring from those common test kits, to a level of 0.15 PO4 with Sodium Phosphate, is it basically a waste at that point?

Right now I am struggling with low nutrients because of a bare bottom, with a filter sock, and a huge refugium. My undersized skimmer is adjusted running barely collecting foam. I probably should remove half of my chaeto for starters. I've been feeding 1/4 of a teapsoon reefroids every two days. Still registering 0 on Hanna. And I have no fish. Like zero fish. I just got my tank back up and running from a Hurricane 6 months ago, all of my stuff was held by my LFS thankfully, but I let the fish go.