How much clownfish aggression is too much?

[dach]

I got a pair of juvenile storm clownfish about 3 weeks ago, the black one has begun relentlessly chasing the orange one. How much aggression is too much before i need to remove/return the black one?

The orange one seems to submit or run or hide when chased, but it’s all day and every time the black one spots the orange one it charges at the orange one. Here are some videos :

Also another thing that happened is when i put a net in the tank all of the sudden the black storm is submitting to the smaller orange?? Weird..

As of now i need to go to work but the orange storm is hiding while it seems like the black storm is looking for it.

 

[Jekyl]

Are both eating? Is the orange one damaged at all?

 

[dach]

Are both eating? Is the orange one damaged at all?

Both are eating, orange ones soft dorsal fin(one above anal fin) is a little damaged. Black storm has a little tail damage. Not sure if that is from the other clown or the firefish which is the dominant fish in the tank.

 

[Jekyl]

Both are eating, orange ones soft dorsal fin(one above anal fin) is a little damaged. Black storm has a little tail damage. Not sure if that is from the other clown or the firefish which is the dominant fish in the tank.

An acclimation box may be best. Catch the orange one and give it some time to recuperate.

 

[dach]

An acclimation box may be best. Catch the orange one and give it some time to recuperate.

Thanks I have a 32oz takout container I’ve been using for acclimation and a
Clip i can use to put it on the side. I’ll give that a shot when i go home for lunch. Thanks! If the chasing continues should i look to trade in the black storm? I have a good relationship with my LFS

 

[Birdbrains?]

They aren't fighting. The female would be biting the hell out of the male if that was the case. The female is trying to be in charge but it has not developed the proper skills yet.

My two cents is that the problem is mostly that the dominant fish is able to physically corner the subdominant in those open corner areas of the tank. The dominant fish has to learn how to lure the subdominant instead of chasing it.

Not yet knowing how to lure in the male, the dominant fish is becoming frustrated, which will only scare the male.

I would try to get something like a couple of nicely branching liverocks to temporarily put in those open corners. Something which they can chase endlessly around in circles. As long as the subdominant fish cannot effectively escape the dominant fish, the dominant fish will not learn how to lure. Being an inexperienced female clownfish is similar to being a mute in charge of loud shouting. It has to develop proper signlanguage before it can communicate with the male.

Otherwise the female will just keep being frustrated and chase the male around in an attempt to control it. The shaking indicates that they are signaling for safety with one another but the male does not understand what the female wants it to do, until the female learns the lure signal (seductive tail waving).

 

[Reef.]

I wouldn’t separate yet if there is not damage, but that call is yours to make.

I would add extra food, if they are using all that energy the extra food will be needed and may help with any aggression.

 

[JayA]

That would be enough for me to return if it doesn't settle down within 3 days. IMO

 

[dach]

They aren't fighting. The female would be biting the hell out of the male if that was the case. The female is trying to be in charge but it has not developed the proper skills yet.

My two cents is that the problem is mostly that the dominant fish is able to physically corner the subdominant in those open corner areas of the tank. The dominant fish has to learn how to lure the subdominant instead of chasing it.

Not yet knowing how to lure in the male, the dominant fish is becoming frustrated, which will only scare the male.

I would try to get something like a couple of nicely branching liverocks to temporarily put in those open corners. Something which they can chase endlessly around in circles. As long as the subdominant fish cannot effectively escape the dominant fish, the dominant fish will not learn how to lure. Being an inexperienced female clownfish is similar to being a mute in charge of loud shouting. It has to develop proper signlanguage before it can communicate with the male.

Otherwise the female will just keep being frustrated and chase the male around in an attempt to control it. The shaking indicates that they are signaling for safety with one another but the male does not understand what the female wants it to do, until the female learns the lure signal (seductive tail waving).

Thanks for this! I think an additional thing playing in here is that my firefish is dominating the black storm to fight for his territory, where the black storm will actually submit to the firefish. I think this might be dragging out the process between the two clowns.

 

[dach]

I wouldn’t separate yet if there is not damage, but that call is yours to make.

I would add extra food, if they are using all that energy the extra food will be needed and may help with any aggression.

I think I’m going to hold out longer, my lfs advised that as long as the smaller one is not looking like it’s going to die, this is not uncommon. I did manage to catch the black storm 2x just to kinda put it in time out to give the orange storm a break from the chasing. It has since resumed but I’m hoping they’re making progress in settling their disputes lol.

 

[Reef.]

I think I’m going to hold out longer, my lfs advised that as long as the smaller one is not looking like it’s going to die, this is not uncommon. I did manage to catch the black storm 2x just to kinda put it in time out to give the orange storm a break from the chasing. It has since resumed but I’m hoping they’re making progress in settling their disputes lol.

its all part of the process, I guess they do need to go through this process as I would think this is what causes the hormones to make the changes in the fish, keeping the smaller one male and the bigger one turning into a female…just seems the way yours are going you’ll need a bigger tank for the female and a magnifying glass to find the male, they are taking their roles very seriously

 

[dach]

I think I’m going to hold out longer, my lfs advised that as long as the smaller one is not looking like it’s going to die, this is not uncommon. I did manage to catch the black storm 2x just to kinda put it in time out to give the orange storm a break from the chasing. It has since resumed but I’m hoping they’re making progress in settling their disputes lol.

its all part of the process, I guess they do need to go through this process as I would think this is what causes the hormones to make the changes in the fish, keeping the smaller one male and the bigger one turning into a female…just seems the way yours are going you’ll need a bigger tank for the female and a magnifying glass to find the male, they are taking their roles very seriously

I have actually seen some progress i think, chasing has calmed down a bit although it is still frequent. I saw the female to be ( not sure if it’s past the point of no return) shaking in a slightly different way to the orange one and having a little dance off. I even saw the orange one go up towards the black one instead of running away! I’m hoping they will be a happy couple because right now they still sleep on opposite sides of the tank

 

[Birdbrains?]

I would think this is what causes the hormones to make the changes in the fish, keeping the smaller one male

I think you are correct about that. I notice the eyes of some species instantly turn pale in colour when the chase sets it. It is not a permanent colour change, rather like if a human face turns "pale with fear". It must be social cues that guides the hormones towards what development is most beneficial for the individual fish to follow.

 

[Birdbrains?]

I have actually seen some progress i think, chasing has calmed down a bit although it is still frequent. I saw the female to be ( not sure if it’s past the point of no return) shaking in a slightly different way to the orange one and having a little dance off.

Awesome, congratulations on the pair beginning to settle down. I really love looking at all the little nuances in clownfish communication. The male I keep was supertiny and very timid in the beginning. It took a full year before it seemed to feel completely confident swimming around in all of its territory. Down the line the male started acting like a courageous little soldier, swimming near my hands to look at what I am doing when I clean the tank and being the first to snatch food from my fingers, if I give them a special treat. The big female waits in the background, letting the male make sure everything is safe before joining in.

I even saw the orange one go up towards the black one instead of running away! I’m hoping they will be a happy couple because right now they still sleep on opposite sides of the tank

The female will probably end up guiding the male to where it wants it to sleep. The full process took about a year for the ones I keep but their relationship had many interesting development stages during that time.

I fondly remember once where they had discovered a particularly dark hole underneath a rock. They spent 12 hours non-stop that day, looking at that hole from all angles. After spending 12 hours with the female trying countless times to coach the male to swim through the hole and confirming several times, that they could see each other if they looked through the hole from opposite sides, the male finally tried swimming through it. They appeared to celebrate afterwards. Fish behaviour is just super interesting to watch.

 

[dach]

Awesome, congratulations on the pair beginning to settle down. I really love looking at all the little nuances in clownfish communication. The male I keep was supertiny and very timid in the beginning. It took a full year before it seemed to feel completely confident swimming around in all of its territory. Down the line the male started acting like a courageous little soldier, swimming near my hands to look at what I am doing when I clean the tank and being the first to snatch food from my fingers, if I give them a special treat. The big female waits in the background, letting the male make sure everything is safe before joining in.



The female will probably end up guiding the male to where it wants it to sleep. The full process took about a year for the ones I keep but their relationship had many interesting development stages during that time.

I fondly remember once where they had discovered a particularly dark hole underneath a rock. They spent 12 hours non-stop that day, looking at that hole from all angles. After spending 12 hours with the female trying countless times to coach the male to swim through the hole and confirming several times, that they could see each other if they looked through the hole from opposite sides, the male finally tried swimming through it. They appeared to celebrate afterwards. Fish behaviour is just super interesting to watch.

So update for all who have been helping. I thank you all for everything. The pairing has not yet fully taken. The male has been sitting in the sand to hide from the female, even burrowed into a cave that i did not think he could fit into. When he was found there was a little lip lock then the normal chasing until the male could hide away by sitting still in the bottom corner of the tank.

i have put the female in a 32oz takeout container in the tank for the time being just to give the male some time to recover. He is pretty tattered up and looks like he’s seen some s***.

I’ve also noticed the female seems to still be nipping at the male even when he submits, which is now the reason why i think he runs.

Despite all of this, the male is eating and looks moderately healthy despite the torn fins and maybe some lost color. Is there still hope for this pair? I’m considering buying a breeder box and placing the female in there. At this point in time i about measured the clowns to try to give an accurate age. The fish I’ve been calling female is about 1.75 inches and the male is a little smaller than 1.5 inches but isn’t as thick. The female is separated into the container and the male is in the tank.

I’m trying to attach a vid but not sure it’ll work. It’s just a closeup
Of the orange clown


Also is it a good or bad idea to put them both together in a small space so there is no running and they can settle it? Would this just lead to disaster and fighting?

 

[Reef.]

Are you sure they are not both female?

Both look quite big, once female they can not turn back to male, no matter how small one is compared to the other.

 

[Birdbrains?]

A little nipping can pass and still lead to a successful bonding. Perhaps they locked jaws because the smaller one felt like it had to defend itself because it happened to be cornered. With the fish I keep, the females get rather big compared to the males, and the smaller one always escaped into the pathways of the rockwork until the bigger one started to use lure, instead of being a chasing control freak. Forcing them to be close might work on occasion but I doubt it is a very good idea. I think it sounds like a good idea to let the smaller one recover and see how it goes from there. Let the tattered fins recover. Perhaps they will miss having company after getting a little break.

 

[JayA]

sometimes fish just don't get along... Personally, I would return the bullying one, and get a smaller than your current to add to the tank (if you still want two). Just my two cents.

 

[dach]

Are you sure they are not both female?

Both look quite big, once female they can not turn back to male, no matter how small one is compared to the other.

I think they are too small to be female, or at least the one. Idk if the tank is making them look big but this is a 20g, the bigger clown is about 1.75 inches where the smaller is 1.25-1.5 inches long. Here is a picture next to my tailspot blenny which can grow to 2.5 inches long max but i only got mine a month or so ago.

 

[dach]

A little nipping can pass and still lead to a successful bonding. Perhaps they locked jaws because the smaller one felt like it had to defend itself because it happened to be cornered. With the fish I keep, the females get rather big compared to the males, and the smaller one always escaped into the pathways of the rockwork until the bigger one started to use lure, instead of being a chasing control freak. Forcing them to be close might work on occasion but I doubt it is a very good idea. I think it sounds like a good idea to let the smaller one recover and see how it goes from there. Let the tattered fins recover. Perhaps they will miss having company after getting a little break.

I’m going to buy a breeder box tomorrow to place the bigger clown in for a few days, hopefully teach it to not chase the smaller one. He has found some hiding places, but it seems the big one spends time legitimately hunting it down. Doesn’t bother any of the other inhabitants , just the orange storm:/