How much PO4?

  • Thread starter Thread starter bdare
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Cheato can only reduce nitrate if you have enough phosphate. How much phosphate do I need to reduce my elevated nitrate?
I’m not aware of a specific number but I believe your 0.07 is more than sufficient. I believe algae and zooxanthelle prefer ammonia/ammonium and bacteria over no3/po4. So I have 2 refugiums, 1 filled with chaeto in my sump and 1 filled with corals in my display. As long as your feeding your fish a couple times a day and not over skimming there will be plenty of nutrition for your corals. If my no3 hits 25 I do a 25% water change and I don’t really worry about po4. I test po4 weekly to make sure it stays ABOVE 0.10 ppm or 30 ppb bc I like to keep my alk 8.5-9. These are the same methodologies that many of my favorite vendors use. Works for them and it works for me
 
I am not disputing your reefing success. That is without question.

What I am saying is that water changes are a poor method of nutrient reduction.
I don’t know man, numbers don’t lie to me, but at this point it doesn’t matter. We all have a way to deal with this hobby. I guess I’m still old school. My Apex bricked and it’s still offline after I fixed it.

If OP wants to dose PO4 to lower NO3 based off that ratio, then he has his numbers and can figure out how much PO4 he needs. I’d just do regular old WC and be done with it.

Btw, I only have experience with PO4 leaching from substrate, not NO3, so I don’t dispute that.
 
I also have a 29 gallon frag tank that I house many of my less valuable sps that has no skimmer and no reactors. It has 5 fat fish that get fed everyday. I dose 15 mls of tm all for reef a couple times a week and that’s it. I have not tested alk in 2 months and have never tested cal mag no3 or po4 and everything is just fine.
 
I also have a 29 gallon frag tank that I house many of my less valuable sps that has no skimmer and no reactors. It has 5 fat fish that get fed everyday. I dose 15 mls of tm all for reef a couple times a week and that’s it. I have not tested alk in 2 months and have never tested cal mag no3 or po4 and everything is just fine.
Now that I think about it, I haven’t lost a single coral in that frag tank. I wish I could say the same for my DT. Food for thought
 
Now that I think about it, I haven’t lost a single coral in that frag tank. I wish I could say the same for my DT. Food for thought
Honestly brotha, all I’m saying is this: at one point in time, (probably) all of us have read this and that about reefing (redfield ratio included) and try to achieve those “numbers”, and what happens? I don’t know. Maybe success maybe failure. I have homies that run ULNS systems and have super thriving colorful tanks. I have homies that run the opposite and have successful tanks. I’m in the middle (maybe). But when we find something that works for our tank chemistry, we stick to it. Not some ideal number and think that will solve it. OP isn’t doing that per se, but sometimes, going back to basics is the best thing.

You run elevated nutrients (really? Or slightly) and are good. I run low nutrients and are just as good. There’s so many factors.

In this case, a simple large WC would fix the issue-iiiiiiiiiii feel- and is the easiest, vs buying phosphate supplement and dosing and then maybe having issues. To each his own.
 
I am a big fan of carbon dosing to lower nitrates. I feed very heavily and with chaeto, ATS, and skimmer my nitrates can get wildly high. Takes a few weeks to kick in, but once it does the nitrates drop rapidly.
Need phosphate to drop nitrate though right? Are my phosphates too low to reduce nitrate?
 
Need phosphate to drop nitrate though right? Are my phosphates too low to reduce nitrate?

You are correct there is a certain amount of phosphate that is necessary, but I have run close to 0 phosphate and carbon dosing still brought nitrates down significantly. Just have to be careful with actually hitting 0 phosphates, but with normal feeding I don't feel it is easily obtainable. I have always noticed a significantly disproportionate decrease in nitrate over phosphate while carbon dosing.
 
FWIW

 
I would wait on the new test kit to come in and check again to get an accurate reading. Did you add any bacteria to your system? Also what test kit did you order?
 
I would wait on the new test kit to come in and check again to get an accurate reading. Did you add any bacteria to your system? Also what test kit did you order?
Interesting question about the bacteria. When the tank first started I used fritz turbo start bacteria.
I ordered the Red Sea nitrate pro kit.
 
My nitrates are around 20-25 ppm, and phosphates are around .15 ppm. I have no pest issues with algae, and I'm starting to think the prevailing wisdom about nutrient levels is baloney...

IMG_20190913_194318.jpg
 
My nitrates are around 20-25 ppm, and phosphates are around .15 ppm. I have no pest issues with algae, and I'm starting to think the prevailing wisdom about nutrient levels is baloney...

Sort of depends on what you mean by "prevailing wisdom". If you were to ask the question about what an optimal PO4 tank level is on the SPS forum, you will definitely get various opinions. However, the general consensus over the last few years is that keeping ultra low dissolved inorganic phosphate and nitrate is problematic for SPS, particularly newly introduced SPS that were grown/kept in tank water with inorganic phosphate concentrations > 100ppb.

Keep in mind that I'm not saying that it's not possible for SPS to thrive in a so-called "ULNS" tank; such tanks that are successful typically substitute organic foods for dissolved inorganic nutrients. There's one such tank that was profiled on Reef Builders in the last year or so where the gentleman was using an auto fish feeder to add Reef Roids to his tank at least (IIRC) 3 times a day. He combined that with heavy skimming and an automated roller fleece to prevent the eutrophication of his tank that would probably occur with that much feeding.
 
OP - From the standpoint of water changes and nitrate control, there's some amount of subtlety to the answer. Typically, when one sets up a new tank with all dry rock/sand, one adds either an inorganic source of ammonia and bottled bacteria, or an organic source of nutrients such as a raw shrimp/fish food, or some combination to promote the establishment of nitrification bacteria.

The typical result of this procedure is relatively high nitrate levels after the 4-6 weeks of cycling, and the general recommendation is to change 1/2 or more of the tank water to bring these levels down. On a purely mathematical basis, the reduction in nitrate is in direct correlation to the amount of water changed - if you change 1/2 of the water volume with new saltwater, the nitrate in the tank water will fall by 1/2.

The reason that you might hear that water changes aren't the best method for reducing nitrate is a slightly different situation. Specifically, the advice is given for an established tank with a fairly high amount of livestock. In such a situation, the tank inhabitant's metabolic processes together with nitrifying bacteria are working to continuously produce nitrate. Depending on how dense the livestock is in the tank, how much the aquarist is feeding, etc..., that nitrate production can be rather high, and one would have to do an unreasonable amount of water changes to control the levels.

Instead, one typically employs methods to reduce the production of nitrate from the decay of uneaten food, and removal of nitrate by harvesting organisms that use it. Examples of the former are mechanical filtration methods such as reef socks, roller fleece and skimming, and examples of the latter are harvesting of algae from a refugium, skimming to remove bacteria from the water, etc... In fact, carbon dosing uses exactly this strategy - one adds an inorganic, easily oxidizable carbon source to the water to promote the growth of aerobic bacteria that are then skimmed out, and to promote the establishment and growth of anaerobic autotrophic bacteria that reduce nitrate to nitrogen gas.
 
Hello all,

I apologize if this is one of those questions that gets asked on a regular basis, but I can't seem to find any definitive answers. I have a relatively new tank (5 months). Current inhabitants are fish and a few snails and crabs. The only coral is a green leather toadstool which is doing really well. I've been growing cheato like crazy and I'm trying to get the tank ready for more coral including SPS.

I'd like to know how much phosphate am I supposed to have in the tank? I just checked it with a HANA ULR and got a value of .07ppm. I've seen where NSW is double that.

Also.... the only nitrate test kit I have is one from Salifert. I had a buddy bring some of his water over a week ago. I tested his water and it was HIGH (50+). Then he took his water to a fish store and they said it was 3.

My nitrates have been testing in that same 50+ range and don't seem to budge. I'm wondering if it's a bad kit so I just ordered the Red Sea Pro kit.

If my nitrates are indeed that high should I be dosing phosphate to get the nitrates to drop (based on the Redfield ratio)?

What is the target range for PO4 in a mixed reef?

Thanks,
Ben

That level is fine, but surface seawater is typically far lower. I usually recommend about 0.03 ppm as a good level.
 
I find phosphates are hard to rid of with water changes, nitrates have always been easily remedied with water changes for me.

Due to the huge reservoir of phosphate bound to rock and sand, as folks noted above. Nitrate doesn’t do that so is more easily washed away.
 

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