How often do you dose amino acids?

[35ppt]

I have no idea what that means. When I say ‘credible’, I mean test and control tanks to see if there are reproducible difference between dosed amino acids and not. I’m chuckling as I type this as I’m pretty sure there’s not, so the typical anecdotes debate that frequents these boards. Here is my amino ‘starved’ tank .....

Where did someone say your tank was amino starved?

 

[Hydrored]

How do You dose without refrigeration? I, too, would like to dose my AB+

I put a weeks worth in a home made dosing container per their instructions

 

[MrZoaCrazy]

1ml every day per 100litres

 

[AltitudeAquarium]

Amino acids may be available through the consumption of live or frozen foods. To be sure, I want additional amino acids available to the corals if they desire to use them .. I believe that the uptake is conditional to adequate lighting and other nutrients and parameters met. I know that providing amino acids in feed supplements for my cows kept them healthier. But my knowledge was anecdotal at the time. Now, I see articles discussing how calves benefit. So, in my mind the corals will benefit as well.

 

[Proteus Meep]

I only have one little green clown goby in my tank.... i like to give my fish plenty of personal space ...so when i make up my frozen mix of food i add amino acids to the mixture before freezing it that way my tank gets a little each day when i feed

Definately noticed the diference in the size and growth rate of my zoa's since doing this they had become almost micro zoa size and were slowly disappearing until i started on the acropower addition

So for my heavily coral stocked but fish sparse tank it has had clear visible results

 

[conix67]

So it is generally agreed that dosing amino acids is beneficial. However, just with anything in this hobby, blind dosing is something to avoid as there could be unexpected consequences.

Is there a known method to measure how much a reef tank is lacking in amino acids?

 

[ca1ore]

Where did someone say your tank was amino starved?

Do people not understand the notion of putting words in quotes ……quotation marks around single words can occasionally be used for emphasis, but only when quoting a word or term someone else used. Usually, this implies that the author doesn’t agree with the use of the term.

 

[sde1500]

Coming at this from a position of being interested in possibly starting dosing aminos. But also hesitant to accept any sort of anecdotal evidence, because there are so many cases where people see what they WANT to see. Dose something expecting it to work, and make yourself see, subconsciously, an improvement. That being said, would be interesting to put together some data, not interested in a full on controlled experiment, but the observations of upticks in alk or calcium uptake. That is at least reasonable observations where, if nothing else has changed, aminos can be looked to as the cause.

You do have a valid point about better husbandry for sure. I'll beg to differ regarding dosing the elements not making a difference though. For my circumstances with what I'm currently doing with my tank, I do no water changes so my only means of now providing the coral what they need to grow can only primarily come from additives like trace elements, etc. So foods contain some trace, but I also do not over feed the tank to maintain NO3/PO4 like some. I feed what my fish need and allow them to graze like they would in the wild. So I also dose NO3/PO4 to keep enough in the system to do my best to avoid dinos, etc. So far so good.

Yes when you are adding things to your tank, it forces you to pay closer attention to details or you'll just kill everything. When I was doing water changes, I did Red Sea for a short time to go through the 500ml bottles and stopped. Didn't really pay much attention at that time was just checking it out. But now that I'm not doing water changes anymore I definitely need to add trace elements or it'll likely be bye-bye SPS. Just have to make sure that in doing so, I pay close attention to what/how I'm going about the process.

At this point for me, it's more about getting closer to NSW levels for parameters. I cannot say definitively that the Red Sea program/NO3/PO4/Strontium dosing regiment that I am currently doing is solely responsible for the improvements in grow that I'm seeing in my system, but I will say that before doing them, some of my SPS just did not grow at all. Those same SPS are now having to be moved around to allow them growing room.

Reason for stopping water changes for me are I can save a lot of money on RO/DI, waste water, salt, and everything that goes along with doing a water change (and I had AWC running with a Neptune DOS with it's own separate RO/DI unit). Also I no longer have to be concerned about mixing the salt, dealing with water temperature, salinity level in RO/DI, dKH swings from bigger water changes, etc. The amount of savings that I'll gain once I finish my current batch of Red Sea and switch to making my own trace elements from readily available products from Amazon/e-Bay, etc. is going to be insane. So far I've spent about $200 (3-4 boxes of salt) to get most of what I need to make my own trace elements. The amount that I purchased will last me years. Comparing that to the cost of salt and water changes every other week or heck even every month are real tangible savings.

With all that said, it really comes down to how your plan to run "your" reef long-term. Do what works for you and stick to it until it doesn't. You want to dose amino acids, dose amino acids. You do not, do not. Your money and time so do as you please and enjoy it while doing so.

I don't think anyone would consider Aminos to be trace elements, not sure how this fits the discussion.

Here is another study: https://jeb.biologists.org/content/211/6/860

A simple Google search and you’ll see that there have been studies that prove coral do utilize Amino Acids for growth purposes. Maybe those are all funded by the companies selling “snake oil”.

No one is arguing that aminos aren't used. The question is, is there actually a need to provide MORE aminos than what is available to corals via feeding the fish and fish waste?

I would say there is a ton of experiments about coral growth and color in direct connection to each other.

Please source them, would be interested.

So it is generally agreed that dosing amino acids is beneficial.

Is it? I wouldn't think so. I'd say it is generally agreed that its obvious aminos are needed, but debatable if there is a need to dose them.

Is there a known method to measure how much a reef tank is lacking in amino acids?

Not aware of any point in time tests to measure proteins or amino acid levels in a tank.

 

[mitch91175]

Coming at this from a position of being interested in possibly starting dosing aminos. But also hesitant to accept any sort of anecdotal evidence, because there are so many cases where people see what they WANT to see. Dose something expecting it to work, and make yourself see, subconsciously, an improvement. That being said, would be interesting to put together some data, not interested in a full on controlled experiment, but the observations of upticks in alk or calcium uptake. That is at least reasonable observations where, if nothing else has changed, aminos can be looked to as the cause.


I don't think anyone would consider Aminos to be trace elements, not sure how this fits the discussion.


No one is arguing that aminos aren't used. The question is, is there actually a need to provide MORE aminos than what is available to corals via feeding the fish and fish waste?


Please source them, would be interested.


Is it? I wouldn't think so. I'd say it is generally agreed that its obvious aminos are needed, but debatable if there is a need to dose them.

Not aware of any point in time tests to measure proteins or amino acid levels in a tank.

Sorry didn't mean to have the thread police tell me that this thread is about amino acids only

 

[sde1500]

Sorry didn't mean to have the thread police tell me that this thread is about amino acids only

Be as snarky or demeaning as you want, doesn't bother me, nor does it change the observation that responding to a comment about not seeing benefits post amino dosing with a long winded response about trace elements doesn't exactly hit the mark.

 

[mitch91175]

Be as snarky or demeaning as you want, doesn't bother me, nor does it change the observation that responding to a comment about not seeing benefits post amino dosing with a long winded response about trace elements doesn't exactly hit the mark.

How about you do the experiment and fill everyone in about what you observe? Also just dose amino acids and not worry about none of that other stuff I was referring to and let us know how that goes for you. Let that NO3/PO4 and everything else bottom out.

 

[sde1500]

How about you do the experiment and fill everyone in about what you observe? Also just dose amino acids and not worry about none of that other stuff I was referring to and let us know how that goes for you. Let that NO3/PO4 and everything else bottom out.

That would ruin the point of experimenting because then there would be more than one variable. Try being less thin skinned

 

[ReefGeezer]

My totally unscientific take on this subject is that when bioavailable nitrogen is lacking, Amino Acids help. If that is true, low nutrient tanks with just a few lightly fed fish can certainly be candidates for addition of amino acids. Mature, heavily stocked, heavily fed tanks that have plenty of bioavailable nitrogen probably really don't benefit as much from the addition of amino acids.

 

[conix67]

Is it? I wouldn't think so. I'd say it is generally agreed that its obvious aminos are needed, but debatable if there is a need to dose them.

I should have said "if lacking". The article/paper I read says all amino acids needed by corals are produced by zoozanthelles already but at night time the production is reduced so there's a higher chance of coral's uptake on amino acids in the water?

But even if we assume that corals need extra amino acids provided through dosing, if we don't know exactly how much is required, how much do we dose? If there's left overs not consumed, they will be converted to something else.. or is what people seeing as benefit is actually coming from that instead of direct uptake by corals..

 

[conix67]

My totally unscientific take on this subject is that when bioavailable nitrogen is lacking, Amino Acids help. If that is true, low nutrient tanks with just a few lightly fed fish can certainly be candidates for addition of amino acids. Mature, heavily stocked, heavily fed tanks that have plenty of bioavailable nitrogen probably really don't benefit as much from the addition of amino acids.

Or just turn off the skimmer if lightly stocked?

 

[mitch91175]

That would ruin the point of experimenting because then there would be more than one variable. Try being less thin skinned

Hey in all honesty, there are too many other variables to everything we are doing in our closed systems that play a part in system health, etc. Totally nearly impossible to pinpoint one thing from the other. You are in this thread because you feel you need/want to do something to your system just like everyone else.

Try amino acids and let your eyes be the judge. You won't kill your tank unless you do something totally off-kilt. Then you can determine for yourself whether it works for your system or not, just like everything else in this hobby. What works for you won't necessarily always work for someone else. Heck even 2 systems setup identically can have different reactions. Exactly why when you pay a premium for that bright colored new coral and get it in your system and it turns brown/green. Different tank, different owner, different results.

 

[conix67]

AcroPower designed by Julian Sprung? Doesn't he know a thing or two about Corals?

 

[ReefGeezer]

AcroPower designed by Julian Sprung? Doesn't he know a thing or two about Corals?

... and a lot about marketing.

 

[35ppt]

Do people not understand the notion of putting words in quotes ……quotation marks around single words can occasionally be used for emphasis, but only when quoting a word or term someone else used. Usually, this implies that the author doesn’t agree with the use of the term.

You said "Here is my amino ‘starved’ tank ....." With the single quotes denoting sarcasm. Or as you put it "doesn't agree with the use of the term". "but only when quoting a word or term someone else used" So where was the word "starved" used by someone talking about your tank? You're saying your tank is not amino starved. No one said it was.. If you meant something else maybe you should be clearer instead of talking down to me.

 

[35ppt]

I should have said "if lacking". The article/paper I read says all amino acids needed by corals are produced by zoozanthelles already but at night time the production is reduced so there's a higher chance of coral's uptake on amino acids in the water?

But even if we assume that corals need extra amino acids provided through dosing, if we don't know exactly how much is required, how much do we dose? If there's left overs not consumed, they will be converted to something else.. or is what people seeing as benefit is actually coming from that instead of direct uptake by corals..

It says "Zooxanthellae are primary producers and produce all their required amino acids,..." It's saying the zoo create all the AA the zoo require. At least that's how I interpreted it. "...with at least two being translocated to the coral host (alanine and glutamine.)" And that we know these two AA are translocated to the host.