How soon is too soon?

[ericegg01]

So I started my cycle roughly about a week and a half ago, I used the Dr. Tims approach and needless to say it didn't go as described in their videos. Even though everyone says all tanks have their own personalities mine seemed to be in another dimension it seems. But I remained patient. My results.

for a solid week my ammonia was 2ppm give or take the color always seemed in between to my eye.
The past 5 days the ammonia was lowering 2ppm, 1.5ppm, .50ppm, .25ppm, and today 0ppm.
During that 5 day stretch my nitrite was at 1ppm, 2ppm, 5+ppm, 5+ppm, and today 5+ppm.
My Nitrate (tested only once yesterday) was at 30ppm again this is determined by my eye which seemed in between the 20ppm and 40ppm color scale.

270gal total water volume, tested with API test kits for now... yes I know.

So am I on pace? given the instructions by the instructional videos this is completely different than the average.

Would like to have some peace of mind that I'm headed in the right direction as it seems odd this is taking so long compared to the instructions.

I have a Montipora waiting at my LFS on hold... how soon is too soon after the cycle is complete?

 

[FLAdaboy]

Make sure it’s an inexpensive monti. If you have fish and inverts in there you should be able to keep some corals. The main thing to remember is stability. As long as you have stability, the animals will become used to your system assuming you have the basics grasped. Lighting can be tricky too. LFS might keep blues turned up high, and maybe you like a more natural look. You could end up frying based off of your lights and not your cycle. Lots to consider. Good luck.

 

[mtraylor]

Did you start with live rock? Dead rock? LIve sand? Seeded anything from mature reef?

 

[ericegg01]

sorry... it's all dead rock, everything I've read said not to ammonia dose with cured rock.


It's a well developed Monti which was exactly what I was looking for, I couldn't let it go to another, luckily I have a good relationship with my LFS and he can hang on to it for awhile. I do not want a "fish" tank, I want strictly coral, maybe 2 clowns but that is all. I figure once my nitrates hit a low point I can then introduce, my LFS uses all blue and I may do the same but your comment on brightness is noted and will watch for that.

 

[brandon429]

nice, that's true. live rock is ready, but sometimes has hitchhikers people don't like.

If we eliminate confounding variables, you'll see that all cycles behave the same, relative to the amounts of surface area about to be cycled, and whether or not boosts are used in the process (a cycle still occurs if we add no bac, no ammonia, bc those things still get in = mighty slowly)

the confounds are API tests, and measuring anything other than ammonia + submersion time, and even testing for ammonia allows for issues as we don't need to test to cycle, submersion time is the final decider.

You want 30 days, then after that, can begin light reefing. Quarantine your fish and fallow your setup correctly, after the cycle, before using any of them. Makes your fish bulletproof

30 days is ideal, though you can be done in 12 if required, usually not.

this is your no test cycle which always works within 30 days on our planet, factoring in the known boosts:

add water rocks and sand, bring up to temp and circulation, add the # of ammonium drops that online volume calculators show corresponds with about 2 ppm ammonia, or 1, not a big deal. can ballpark. add the approx. amnt of bottle bac recommended per gallonage, swirl all this for two weeks.

in two weeks, add the same amnt of ammonia back in

add the same amnt of bottle bac

wait two more weeks.

at 4 weeks, change out all your water, can reef. add your fish in time, after correct disease protocol, not up front, cycling secret of the year. the current testless method accts for all nitrite levels, all timing, all nitrate levels and timing, and universal deposition timeframes for submerged ecosystems. Whatever a test kit says along the way does not matter.

The end final water change is there for a reason, do that before stocking.

 

[ericegg01]

Brandon, I get all that, but I was going back and forth between Dr. Tims and the leave alone for 30days method I chose Dr.Tims as they claim it speeds up the cycle process, I can wait sure but that defeats the purpose of their claim doesn't it and therefore renders their product wasteful?

In any event I'm left more confounded on how I just throw Benjamins out the window...

 

[brandon429]

the 30 days isn't the timeframe for the unassisted cycle, that's probably 3x longer. the 30 days allows for safe zones so that you don't have to test for a single param.

Dr tims is indeed able to meet a faster cycling demand. in that case, you can either test along the normal ways (all 3) or you can just do ammonia testing, not using API and be done in about 12- 15 days.

follow the dr tims directions and ignore the nitrite portions, doesn't matter, if you want speed cycling, chart what ammonia does at 12-15 days after full water change, not before. after you followed the bottle directions, at the end of your 12-15 days, depending on your particular rush, do the full water change and prepare to do the final test.

the final test is, on a totally clean water palette not a mixed one of waste metabolites, bring your system to 1 ppm for the last time and test ammonia in 24 hours, itll be zero on a salifert ammonia test kit, others will show only low levels.

the movement is what signifies your cycle being done, not the test kits ability to read a perfect zero.

The minimum submersion time, using boosts, is about 12 days to 15 days. When I say minimum time, that means your surfaces are doing the nitrification and not bottle bac suspended in the water. a true cycle is complete when surfaces produce the final test results, not suspended bacteria.

 

[ericegg01]

follow the dr tims directions and ignore the nitrite portions...

That's just it... my scenario I'm experiencing is the total opposite of what their instructions are telling me. Their instructions claim my ammonia wouldn't even reach 2ppm but remain at 0ppm with the amount of Bottled bac I dosed. Yet it was immediately 2ppm for 8days straight, their instructions say to add more ammonia in the amount of 4drops per gal (that's 1,080 drops) until I reached 2ppm then wait for it to fall to 0 then re-add to 1ppm then have it fall to 0. But my situation was the complete opposite it was like the 36oz of bottled bac @$100 did absolutely nothing for me.

I should have just went with the normal method I'm accustomed to. The contradictions in this hobby annoy me.

 

[dankreef]

When nitrite and ammonia is 0 your tank is technically good. But if you put coral in and get any ammonia they will die . I would chill for a few weeks and make sure it's staying zero then probably ok. Dr Tims rocks I used it on my 600. Keep adding ammonia until you add it and the next day nitrite and ammonia are 0. If you go above 2 it can stall the cycle .

 

[brandon429]

what is the test kit being used here. the 30 day method cannot fail, so in the end, all you have as backup is waiting a simple 3 more weeks your cycle w complete just fine.


if you can get it by day 15, that's test kit dependent, and why we make threads that do not use test kits the universal headache in cycling.

I bet salifert isn't at play here?>

 

[Rolrod39]

I think your moving too fast. Your aquarium is going to be your baby. Patience is needed in this hobby. Let you aquarium cycle. Your babies (fish and coral) will love you for it.

I have a 55 DSA Mixed reef,, 30 gallon fuge, Electric Blue Damsel, Black Goby, yellow Tang, Sailfin Tang, Christmas Wrasse, Neon dottyback, Tomato Clown, Ocellaris clownfish, Singapore Angelfish, coral banded shrimp, fire shrimp, full spectrum led, bio pellet reactor, carbon reactor, gfo reactor, skimmer, 7 watt UV Sterilizer,

 

[Rolrod39]

I think your moving too fast. Your aquarium is going to be your baby. Patience is needed in this hobby. Let you aquarium cycle. Your babies (fish and coral) will love you for it.

I have a 55 DSA Mixed reef,, 30 gallon fuge, Electric Blue Damsel, Black Goby, yellow Tang, Sailfin Tang, Christmas Wrasse, Neon dottyback, Tomato Clown, Ocellaris clownfish, Singapore Angelfish, coral banded shrimp, fire shrimp, full spectrum led, bio pellet reactor, carbon reactor, gfo reactor, skimmer, 7 watt UV Sterilizer,

 

[brandon429]

there's a neat way to see things online too, from very old materials.

if we were to search out a cycling chart even from a 1980's book we can see trends of 30-40 days in place before nitrite always follows ammonia behavior, they're linked set by certain times.

to go faster than that means either someone is wanting to learn true bac knowledge, how they can drive systems, or they're responding to a broken tank/emergency situation possibly, or they're just on a continuum of rushing which will manifest in too-early fish additions as I see it.

only two of those reasons for being faster than 30 days is valid imo

 

[ericegg01]

I'm not rushing, the product claims it speeds the cycle process up, if it does not do this then they are falsely advertising their product. However there are those who claim this product does what it says it does to the letter. You're confusing my two questions I think, I merely wanted a second opinion on where I was at in my cycle as it is not displaying the behavior people have sworn to say "it works". My Montipora question is how soon after the cycle completes can I introduce it.

I guess what I'm subconsciously saying is I wasted yet another bank roll on snake oil.

 

[brandon429]

what is your test kit, is it api or red sea

we have doubts about test kit accuracy, not ability for dr tims to deliver on time. test kit accuracy is what ranges. I fully believe most test kits other than salifert are snake oil though many would disagree.

 

[ericegg01]

Both salifert and api are testing the same with minor fluctuations (done by me and LFS), I'm not concerned with results I'm concerned that maybe my cycled stalled or there is another problem or I'm just driving myself crazy.

 

[brandon429]

how are things now

 

[brandon429]

bump for ammonia check, any movement

 

[moulton712]

its not snake oil, but helps diversify the bacteria. I'm on board your are wanting to move too fast. even after the initial cycle your tank will go through phases for almost a year. blooms, pods, everything.

 

[Swayne_07]

sorry... it's all dead rock, everything I've read said not to ammonia dose with cured rock.


It's a well developed Monti which was exactly what I was looking for, I couldn't let it go to another, luckily I have a good relationship with my LFS and he can hang on to it for awhile. I do not want a "fish" tank, I want strictly coral, maybe 2 clowns but that is all. I figure once my nitrates hit a low point I can then introduce, my LFS uses all blue and I may do the same but your comment on brightness is noted and will watch for that.

Can I ask why only coral, I am a goral guy as well but fish waste feeds the coral

 

[Syoung]

So I started my cycle roughly about a week and a half ago, I used the Dr. Tims approach and needless to say it didn't go as described in their videos. Even though everyone says all tanks have their own personalities mine seemed to be in another dimension it seems. But I remained patient. My results.

for a solid week my ammonia was 2ppm give or take the color always seemed in between to my eye.
The past 5 days the ammonia was lowering 2ppm, 1.5ppm, .50ppm, .25ppm, and today 0ppm.
During that 5 day stretch my nitrite was at 1ppm, 2ppm, 5+ppm, 5+ppm, and today 5+ppm.
My Nitrate (tested only once yesterday) was at 30ppm again this is determined by my eye which seemed in between the 20ppm and 40ppm color scale.

270gal total water volume, tested with API test kits for now... yes I know.

So am I on pace? given the instructions by the instructional videos this is completely different than the average.

Would like to have some peace of mind that I'm headed in the right direction as it seems odd this is taking so long compared to the instructions.

I have a Montipora waiting at my LFS on hold... how soon is too soon after the cycle is complete?

I'd say you're on (loosely defined) average. The basic principle of Dr. Tim's is to increase the starter bacteria culture. Having a larger initial population gets you to your target bacteria population faster.

An indicator of when your tank is ready is when you can dose ammonia to 2ppm and have it reduced to 0ppm in 24 hours. So once your tank reaches 0ppm ammonia, dose to 2ppm again, and repeat this process until you hit the 2 to 0 in 24 hours.

Usually on the order of 4ish weeks, but pay more attention to the levels than the date.