How to control Ammonia when using Antibiotics?

[iReefer12]

Antibiotics kill nitrifying bacteria, so how do I keep ammonia in check?

Is it safe to regularly keep dosing nitrobacter (bio-spira)?

 

[EmdeReef]

Fortunately, most antibiotics we use don’t seriously affect nitrifying bacteria. There are some exceptions. What abx are you planning to use?

And yes dosing biospira etc in intervals is safe although likely unnecessary. You should watch not to overdose.

 

[iReefer12]

Using Kana-pro.

My ammonia shot up after adding the first dose, I’ve since added a whole bottle of Bio-spira, so is that considered over-dosing bio-spira?

 

[Mjrenz]

Using Kana-pro.

My ammonia shot up after adding the first dose, I’ve since added a whole bottle of Bio-spira, so is that considered over-dosing bio-spira?

I use smaller amounts of biospira but I think it would be hard to overdose it. Prime may also be used to temporarily bind ammonia and make it safe but that only lasts about 24 hours, it can buy you some time if you don't have saltwater mixed up for a water change which is also a great way to keep ammonia in check. Don't use prime of you're using copper, it's a toxic combination.

 

[iReefer12]

Will be doing a 30% water change each morning before each Kana-pro dose.

Kana-pro says to dose each day for 10 days with a 25% water change before each dose? Sound right to you?

 

[Mjrenz]

Will be doing a 30% water change each morning before each Kana-pro dose.

Kana-pro says to dose each day for 10 days with a 25% water change before each dose? Sound right to you?

@ngoodermuth @HotRocks and @4FordFamily are going to be much more knowledgeable on dosing than I am. What are you using it for and on what kind of fish?

 

[iReefer12]

A foxface with an apparent swim bladder disorder. Had the fish 7 years so doing all I can to save her.

 

[4FordFamily]

A foxface with an apparent swim bladder disorder. Had the fish 7 years so doing all I can to save her.

I’d recommend lancing the swim bladder. ABX do not often move the needle (pun intended).


Swim bladder issues generally leave the fish struggling to swim downward as they are overly buoyant, floating to the top repeatedly.

As for ammonia management, biospira works well!

 

[ngoodermuth]

I’m not familiar with kana-pro but I’m assuming it is similar to Kanaplex.

I’d follow the directions stated on the packaging. Biospira is simply live bacteria, so can’t really be overdosed. Can use as much as you need. As mentioned, also can use Prime to help manage ammonia AS LONG AS there is no copper in the water.

Hopefully, the daily waterchanges should help keep ammonia down also.

 

[iReefer12]

I’d recommend lancing the swim bladder. ABX do not often move the needle (pun intended).


Swim bladder issues generally leave the fish struggling to swim downward as they are overly buoyant, floating to the top repeatedly.

As for ammonia management, biospira works well!

I’ve tried this before on a butterflyfish and it was traumatic for everyone involved and I gave up through fear of stabbing the fish in the wrong place, I just don’t trust myself to do this correctly. Man I wish there was someone local with this kind of skill.

 

[4FordFamily]

I’ve tried this before on a butterflyfish and it was traumatic for everyone involved and I gave up through fear of stabbing the fish in the wrong place, I just don’t trust myself to do this correctly. Man I wish there was someone local with this kind of skill.

I succeeded once and failed the second time I tried it. It’s especially easy when the swim bladder is swollen and easy to see the general region it is in as a result.

 

[rkpetersen]

I succeeded once and failed the second time I tried it. It’s especially easy when the swim bladder is swollen and easy to see the general region it is in as a result.

I tried it twice on the same fish, a laboutei fairy wrasse.
Didn't succeed the first time, still floating upside down afterwards, but amazingly didn't kill it either.
Tried again about a week later, this time with Tricaine anesthesia and using a 27 gauge needle with no syringe.
The whole thing was much easier the second time, with the fish not moving or struggling.
I knew I was in when I felt a pop, heard a tiny gush of air from the needle, and saw the abdomen deflate.
Ended the procedure and the fish did recover again.
Unfortunately I eventually had to euthanize him due to spinal syndrome which did not resolve.

 

[Brew12]

My experience is that if you can use a product like Biospira to get the nitrifying bacteria established prior to using antibiotics, they hold up very well. Adding Biospira to a tank with antibiotics in it seems less effective.

 

[iReefer12]

Dosing a crap tonne of Bio-Spira is working, got the Ammonia down to 0.

The foxface is still alive this morning. Ordered some 30G needles which will be here tomorrow. Plan on trying to lance the swim bladder tomorrow if she makes it that long.

If anyone has good knowledge of a Foxface Lo anatomy and can help me pinpoint where to place the needle that would be much appreciated! Maybe draw an X on the spot on this image?

 

[rkpetersen]

Dosing a **** tonne of Bio-Spira is working, got the Ammonia down to 0.

The foxface is still alive this morning. Ordered some 30G needles which will be here tomorrow. Plan on trying to lance the swim bladder tomorrow if she makes it that long.

If anyone has good knowledge of a Foxface Lo anatomy and can help me pinpoint where to place the needle that would be much appreciated! Maybe draw an X on the spot on this image?/QUOTE]

It's not an easy procedure to do without anesthesia. If the fish moves at all while the needle is in, it's likely to lacerate other internal organs.
If the swim bladder is really distended, you might be able to see where the skin surface is protruding the most.
I didn't use a backlight but it's a really good idea. Light will shine through the swim bladder more than other tissues.
I found a 30g needle to be too small and flexible. I don't know about a foxface, but getting through wrasse scales with a 30g requires a good bit of force. A 27g worked better for me.
I swabbed the puncture site with alcohol before, but nothing afterwards. No point, the fish is going back into bacteria-laden water.
Here's the approximate location of the swim bladder. Enter below the lateral line, caudal to the pectoral fin.
It's an extremely risky procedure trying to do something like this without imaging guidance (which is how it's done in humans.)
Good luck.

 

[iReefer12]

Well, what a day. I found a vet nearby, when I say nearby it was an hour away and up in the mountains, anyway, this vet specializes in Koi fish... close enough right... she was willing to take a look at my foxface.

Got an X-Ray on the foxface, which showed the swim bladder and confirmed things. At least I got an interesting picture..

The vet lanced the swim bladder successfully, and also injected antibiotics.

Amazingly, the foxface survived all of this traumatic experience. And is back in the QT now. Her buoyancy has definitely improved but I really don’t think she’ll survive the night... I’ve said that for 4 nights though, but this time I’m pretty sure I’m right. I’ve done everything I can now so it’s up to the fish.

It was snowing up the mountains too, just to make things interesting. I think after this, I’m the one that needs to get examined, I must be insane. Haha

 

[Mjrenz]

Well, what a day. I found a vet nearby, when I say nearby it was an hour away and up in the mountains, anyway, this vet specializes in Koi fish... close enough right... she was willing to take a look at my foxface.

Got an X-Ray on the foxface, which showed the swim bladder and confirmed things. At least I got an interesting picture..

The vet lanced the swim bladder successfully, and also injected antibiotics.

Amazingly, the foxface survived all of this traumatic experience. And is back in the QT now. Her buoyancy has definitely improved but I really don’t think she’ll survive the night... I’ve said that for 4 nights though, but this time I’m pretty sure I’m right. I’ve done everything I can now so it’s up to the fish.

It was snowing up the mountains too, just to make things interesting. I think after this, I’m the one that needs to get examined, I must be insane. Haha

That's great that you were able to find someone to treat her! This may help you with getting her through the night as a last ditch effort, I wish you the best of luck
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/alprazos-salvage-protocol.213599/

 

[Mjrenz]

Well, what a day. I found a vet nearby, when I say nearby it was an hour away and up in the mountains, anyway, this vet specializes in Koi fish... close enough right... she was willing to take a look at my foxface.

Got an X-Ray on the foxface, which showed the swim bladder and confirmed things. At least I got an interesting picture..

The vet lanced the swim bladder successfully, and also injected antibiotics.

Amazingly, the foxface survived all of this traumatic experience. And is back in the QT now. Her buoyancy has definitely improved but I really don’t think she’ll survive the night... I’ve said that for 4 nights though, but this time I’m pretty sure I’m right. I’ve done everything I can now so it’s up to the fish.

It was snowing up the mountains too, just to make things interesting. I think after this, I’m the one that needs to get examined, I must be insane. Haha

This amount of dedication is very impressive, I applaud you for the effort!
@Flippers4pups, I think this deserves some recognition

 

[iReefer12]

dang, I wish I’d known about the temperature. The temp dropped down to 74 throughout the whole trip and I spent 30 mins at home raising it back up to 78. I don’t think I should change the temp once again as we go down for the night?

I was going to lower salinity a bit tomorrow if she makes it, as vet said that would help her.

Should I also lower temp? Maybe 75 or 76 F? 70 sounds way low and scares me.

 

[Mjrenz]

dang, I wish I’d known about the temperature. The temp dropped down to 74 throughout the whole trip and I spent 30 mins at home raising it back up to 78. I don’t think I should change the temp once again as we go down for the night?

I was going to lower salinity a bit tomorrow if she makes it, as vet said that would help her.

Should I also lower temp? Maybe 75 or 76 F? 70 sounds way low and scares me.

Salinity can be dropped immediately, temp needs to be done slowly. When I dropped the temp for my blue tang I just unplugged the heater and let the tank drop to room temp of 73 overnight. A methelyne blue bath may possibly help as well, it will increase oxygen transfer across the gills and may help with the trauma from the swim bladder lancing