How to do water change from basement?

drew930 · Apr 8, 2017

I've been looking at a way to change my water without getting my hands wet. That would make life easier. At first I was going to put my sump in basement but decided I don't think that's necessary if I can find quiet equipment for the living room.

I've looked into Renew , and DOS. I will have an Apex at some point but I'm not sure I even want to spend a couple hundred bucks on this.

I thought about running a separate line from water station up to the tank and have a ball valve on it. But this would have to go to the sump. Problem is I'm looking at the Red Sea reefers and similar tanks where the sump doesn't hold enough water for a water change.

So basically looking for a lower cost way to drain water from main tank , to the basement sink or floor drain. Then add water back to the tank.

Any ideas ?

JamesP · Apr 8, 2017

The dos is good for continuous water changes or 10 gallons or so at once, but not so good for large volumes as it can only go so fast. It takes me 8 hours to do 13 gallons with the dos at full speed and it is loud as heck at that speed.

Maybe have 2 optical water sensors from neptune in the dt, one for normal level and one for low level. Pull water until you hit low using pump 1. Add water until you hit normal using pump 2. Have it turn off the return pump and powerheads while this runs. You may want a dump and a fill program that you initiate manually at each step to keep an eye on it. So it would be semi-automated but safer.

Sacohen · Apr 9, 2017

Here is an automatic water change system that someone from the Floruda Marine Aquarium Society came up with and others have chimmed in and came up with different options.

http://166.78.194.236/forums/showpost.php?p=22085393&postcount=1

Here is a version of the same thing on Reef 2 Reef.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/automatic-water-changes-it-doesnt-get-any-better-then-this.141619/

reefwiser · Apr 9, 2017

I use the Stenner pump for my water changes works great. If I had a basement I would put in a bigger sump. I really don't like small sumps like in a Reefer. There is just no room to work or add things to the system. An a reef tank really benefits from a large volume of water.
Here is how my current water change system works.
Not fancy yet.

I am working slowly to get it nicer but it is doing the job now.

drew930 · Apr 9, 2017

Thanks for the links and videos guys. Looking through them now. I'm about to say screw it and drill a hole through the bottom of floor and put the sump in the basement. Just didn't want to have a $300 external pump that uses a lot of electricity lol

I'm in a dilemma. If I do this I can just have a 40 gallon breeder between my display and sump and have it higher than the sink. Drill the bottom of side panel and add a ball valve. Then open the valve and up to 40 gallons get drained.

Just seems a little extensive drilling tanks and adding one for an easy water change. At least all the maintenance besides DT will be in the basement.

JamesP · Apr 9, 2017

The stenner looks cool, but the dos is probably a better option now days if you already have an apex because its $300 for the matched set and integrates with apex programming like a 3rd party product never could. It works great for a continuous water change or even a small bulk change of around 10 gallons.

The issue with any peristaltic pump solution is when doing a med or large bulk change. Or if your tank is sufficiently large where 10 gallons in insignificant. For that, I still have to pull out the old pump and hose and throw it in my salt resivour to refill what I siphon off. I use the dos for 1% daily continuous water changes and 10 gallon top off after vacuuming 2 buckets from sand every month. I have a Fill10 program I run after I vacuum.

NanoDJS · Apr 9, 2017

I use the 40b for my sump/ reservoir and I run around 170 gallons between 3 tanks on that setup , it takes me only 30 mins to change 30 gallons of water out . I use the return pump that came with a evo 13.5 since I had to switch that out and didnt want it to goto waste , If I used a faster pump it would be like 5 mins literally , I am opposed to any and all gizmos for top off and water changes , they have crashed more tanks than they have stabilized in my view of it

drew930 · Apr 9, 2017

Well I did some math lol to upgrade to basement external pump plus extra ball valves and plumbing plus drilling the sump would cost as much as the DOS lol

So if I do get a Apex this option proves to be the best as long as there's evidence saying a gallon per day or whatever still has the benefits as changing 20-25% every 2-4 weeks. I'm not sure on this as I haven't read up on it.

JamesP - Your right. Large changes wouldn't work but I guess I could by a little $50 used pump to do that if necessary.

The question with the DOS (and I will read on it as I haven't yet) is with an ATO I guess you have to set the ATO to OFF while doing a change?

And I'm guessing the DOS is very very accurate? Would hate for it to take out say for example .5 gallons then put back in 1 gallon or similar.

JamesP · Apr 9, 2017

The dos has a calibration you run after pulling all tubing. It comes with a graduated cylinder and it puts what is supposed to be 40mL and you tell it how much actually came out. It is accurate down to the mL and because of the calibration takes into account the length of the tubing and thickness of the liquid. I would say it is probably the most accurate solution out there. And the dos can run the heads forward or reverse giving you some options there as well.

First I made a dos profile that is a 10 gallon fill. I set the dos outlet to do small continuous water changes all day and if a virtual outlet called fill10 triggers it stops the head that dumps water down the drain and engages the fill10 profile on the fill head overriding the continuous water change happening all of the time. The ato is set to off when the fill10 virtual outlet is on. The fill10 virtual outlet is just a big defer off statement so i trigger a physical button and fill10 is on but stays on for 8 hours because if the defer off. When removing the 10 i have it on a feed cycle for maintenance. I push the button on the wall for 5 seconds and it starts the 10 gallon refill. I then cancel the maintenance feed cycle and the return stays off because the fill10 virtual outlet is engaged for 8 hours while the fill10 profile runs.

I have a low level sensor in my salt resivour that emails me when its time to mix some more. I have a 55 gallon resivour and i dont let it get below 5. A power head is always running in the bottom for mixing. Its plumbed to my rodi with an on/off valve and a backup float valve drilled near the top.

The ato stays on during continuous water change. The levels stay spot on besauce of the accuracy. It removes exactly what it adds at the same time.

SethOF · Apr 9, 2017

You should look into a Stenner pump with dual head.

There are various models, a fixed speed with up to 120gal/day should do the trick.

The link above state a price slightly more than the DOS, but that buys a pump with an established continuous duty rating.

I have the DOS myself, but if I am in the market now I will consider the Stenner. Apex integration is nice but once you set your AWS, it is set and forget.

drew930 · Apr 9, 2017

I will check out the Stenner pump. Other option is Litermeter. Can use this as an ATO and AWC ? Don't know much about them either haha

JamesP · Apr 9, 2017

Apex ATO should be out any day now. Its really just their FMM, 2 optical sensors, and a solenoid or PMUP for the 24V accessory. All of those parts are out except the bracket. It will be bundled and called the ATK. Theyre dragging their feet on the release to get more sales on the FMM first from the best I can tell. I understand from their PoV it makes more money to stagger the resease, but from a consumer PoV its rather annoying that we've been waiting so long for a bracket.

For years the tunze osmilator has been the gold standard of ATOs and what I currently use. Never had an issue.

reefwiser · Apr 9, 2017

If you use a DOS or Stenner they do make quite a bit of noise when running. An a lot of people complain out it if it is in their living room.
Wife's are not amused by the noise either. Mine is in the garage and you don't hear it when it is running.

SethOF · Apr 9, 2017

drew930 said:
I will check out the Stenner pump. Other option is Litermeter. Can use this as an ATO and AWC ? Don't know much about them either haha

There are cheaper dedicated systems for ATO.

SethOF · Apr 9, 2017

reefwiser said:
If you use a DOS or Stenner they do make quite a bit of noise when running. An a lot of people complain out it if it is in their living room.
Wife's are not amused by the noise either. Mine is in the garage and you don't hear it when it is running.

I am looking to build an insulted enclosure for my DOS.

JamesP · Apr 9, 2017

The dos can be programmed to run different speeds based on the time of day. Make it go faster when not home and slow it down when home. But at full speed, its very loud. When I first got mine I opened a ticket with neptune because it was clicking and they sent me new upgraded heads for free and the clicking is gone. Motors still make noise, but clicking crunching sounds are a sign of the early released heads which were not as solid. Here is a newer one for refefence. It has more cross bracing.

Also, if you add some grease from dow that is normally used for rodi canister orings it helps a little too. Add it to the tubing inside the head. BRS carries it.

drew930 · Apr 9, 2017

I don't mind mounting the DOS/other systems right below the tank in basement either. Water station is down there anyway. As long as it has the power to do so.

So the DOS can be set for ATO with a float valve or sensor.... while ATO is set OFF ? Then use for a Water change at different time of day while ATO is set OFF then right ?

So no matter if one was to wait for Neptunes ATO or uses Avast ATO sensor or normal float switch , the DOS can be used as an ATO and a AWC in one pump correct ?

JamesP · Apr 9, 2017

Since the awc takes 2 pumps, one for fresh salt water and one to drain old salt water, you would need a third pump for the rodi for your ato. So it can be used for either, but not both at the same time. I dont think you would want to use the ON statement for an ato because it runs it at full speed. Maybe make a profile with a slower speed and say...

If Outlet LowLevel = ON Then DoS_ATO

Where LowLevel is a virtual outlet following a float switch with a Defer then ON to avoid false triggers and DoS_ATO is a profile for the DoS at a slower speed than max.