How to elevate NO3 and PO4 without dosing?

[Dom]

I'm not one to obsess over water test results. As long as everything looks happy, I don't worry about testing.

Sunday, December 29th, I performed my weekly water change. I surveyed the tank prior to the change and noticed that both Nems, while inflated were not as large as they typically get when the tank is at the peak of its lighting cycle.

I monitored the Nems all week.

One week later (Sunday, January 5th), I completed my weekly water change. But there still isn't any change in the Nems and decided to test.

I started with NO3 and PO4 and both were at undetectable levels. There is a small of algae growth on the glass and assume that it is being fed by whatever undetectable traces of NO3 and PO4 are in the water.

In an effort to get the NO3 up, I have turned off my protein skimmer and removed all Chaetomorpha from the refugium.

Is there anything else I can do short of dosing (I'd rather not dose if I can help it)? How long before I can expect to see results?

Thanks in advance.

Dom

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

I'm not one to obsess over water test results. As long as everything looks happy, I don't worry about testing.

Sunday, December 29th, I performed my weekly water change. I surveyed the tank prior to the change and noticed that both Nems, while inflated were not as large as they typically get when tank is at the peak of its lighting cycle.

I monitored the Nems all week.

One week later (Sunday, January 5th), I completed my weekly water change. But there still isn't any change in the Nems. I decided it was time to test.

I started with NO3 and PO4 and both were at undetectable levels. There is a small of algae growth on the glass and assume that it is being fed by whatever undetectable traces of NO3 and PO4 are in the water.

In an effort to get the NO3 up, I have turned off my protein skimmer and removed all Chaetomorpha from the refugium.

Is there anything else I can do short of dosing (I'd rather not dose if I can help it)? How long before I can expect to see results?

Thanks in advance.

Dom

Yea, fed your children of the sea. .....hahaha
or fed them double portion?

 

[Dom]

Yea, fed your children of the sea. .....hahaha
or fed them double portion?

I feed frozen food (Blood worms, Brine and Miss shrimp). I thought about feeding flake food, but I know that dry foods tend to be a source of PO4, which I'd rather not elevate.

 

[rfgonzo]

Add more fish for No3
Feed fish more for po4

 

[Dom]

Add more fish for No3

Or reduce nutrient export.

 

[Tompickles]

Agree with more fish for No3 and more food for Po4. Just take it slow when you make a change it may take a few weeks to see results

 

[rfgonzo]

Or reduce nutrient export.

Much easer to add a fish or two. But you can reduce If you want.

 

[Dom]

Much easer to add a fish or two. But you can reduce If you want.

I wouldn't just add a fish or two. They would have to be QTd first and I wanted to take more immediate action. That's why I chose to reduce export.

 

[Dom]

Now that I have turned off the skimmer and removed the Chaetomorpha, I'm going to sit on it this way for a month, then reevaluate.

I find changes in Nems are the earliest sign of water chemistry changes. Want to get a jump on it before it becomes a bigger problem.

 

[jccaclimber]

Someone is going to have to explain to me how adding fish adds a different nutrient than adding food.

 

[huckjai]

Someone is going to have to explain to me how adding fish adds a different nutrient than adding food.

I'll take a stab at it. Fish poop has ammonia. Ammonia gets converted to nitrites, then nitrates.

Fish food contains phosphates that will leech into the water.

 

[jccaclimber]

I'll take a stab at it. Fish poop has ammonia. Ammonia gets converted to nitrites, then nitrates.

Fish food contains phosphates that will leech into the water.

Back that up another step to where the fish are getting their nitrogen.

 

[huckjai]

Back that up another step to where the fish are getting their nitrogen.

Do you mean the food they eat? Food takes a couple of days to rot and to start producing ammonia. Phosphate would have leeched before that happened. Hopefully your clean up crew would have eaten the left over food before they start to rot. So feeding more produces more phosphates, but can also produce more nitrates if your clean up crew is not sufficient.

Adding more fish, their poop and pee contain ammonia and gets converted to nitrates right away. So more fish = more nitrates.

Again, just taking a stab at it. Seems logical to me. Haha.

 

[jccaclimber]

Do you mean the food they eat? Food takes a couple of days to rot and to start producing ammonia. Phosphate would have leeched before that happened. Hopefully your clean up crew would have eaten the left over food before they start to rot. So feeding more produces more phosphates, but can also produce more nitrates if your clean up crew is not sufficient.

Adding more fish, their poop and pee contain ammonia and gets converted to nitrates right away. So more fish = more nitrates.

Again, just taking a stab at it. Seems logical to me. Haha.

So if you put the food in, the fish eat it, they poop out ammonia, which bacteria turns into nitrate. We're good there.
If you put the food in (but didn't add more fish), the nitrogen in the food magically vanishes and you don't get the same ammonia>nitrate why?

Same thing with phosphate. You put the food in, phosphate comes out (no fish). Alternatively you put the food in, the phosphate either comes out, or goes through the fish and then comes out anyways.

With or without the presence of fish, the input is food. Fish growth is not significant enough to count as an export method.

 

[huckjai]

So if you put the food in, the fish eat it, they poop out ammonia, which bacteria turns into nitrate. We're good there.
If you put the food in (but didn't add more fish), the nitrogen in the food magically vanishes and you don't get the same ammonia>nitrate why?

Same thing with phosphate. You put the food in, phosphate comes out (no fish). Alternatively you put the food in, the phosphate either comes out, or goes through the fish and then comes out anyways.

With or without the presence of fish, the input is food. Fish growth is not significant enough to count as an export method.

I'm sure it's more complicated than that. Most likely, phosphates in food could be more than what fish produce in ammonia(nitrites/nitrates). I don't know if phosphates get exported from fish when they poop. I assume fish absorb it.

It has been proven to work. So I don't question it.

 

[OA3B]

Now that I have turned off the skimmer and removed the Chaetomorpha, I'm going to sit on it this way for a month, then reevaluate.

I find changes in Nems are the earliest sign of water chemistry changes. Want to get a jump on it before it becomes a bigger problem.

How’s your change coming along? Have your Nems showed signs of improvement?

 

[Dom]

How’s your change coming along? Have your Nems showed signs of improvement?

Thank you for asking!

I did post an update, but it was to a different thread (I posted two on the issue).

As it turns out, there was a manufacturing defect in the Instant Ocean Reef Crystals I use. It was only mixing to 7dKH, when in the past, it typically mixed in the 10-11 range. I started adding Kent Marine Superbuffer at the recommended dosages. My ALK is currently in the 8-9 range and the Nems are looking MUCH better.

Bulk Reef Supply was kind enough to replace the 200 pound box of IORC. I'll keep supplementing with Superbuffer until the new box of mix arrives.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Thanks for the update!

 

[Dom]

Below is a photo of the Nems in question. The one on the top is far ahead of the one at the bottom as far as bounce back.