How to QT my last three fish?

[Steve1500]

First thanks to all for helping me out on so many different reef/fish issues. As a newbie, I never dreamed there would be so much research and obstacles.

I will be purchasing my last set of fish in the next week and I plan on a flame angel, sapphire (Springeri) damsel and a lawnmower blenny. I learned some lessons w/ my previous set of fish, especially the black cap basslet that did not take to well to my first attempt at TTM. Here is my dilemma.

For these three fish, should I TTM, treat w copper or do a combo? Live Aquaria says flame angels are very sensitive to copper (above .15, I believe) but I have read on R2R that you can treat them with copper if you raise it slowly. For the blenny, I have read that they are not as prone to ich as others, but nonetheless, they can get it. Not sure about velvet and brook for any of these fish and I understand TTM will not address these two parasite diseases. I am concerned that the blenny will react to TTM like my black cap did, which was not good. I think the damsel will be ok with TTM or copper. Due to my schedule and that I only have a main QT and two TTM tanks, I am limited in my options to treat all three differently.


TTM all? Copper all slowly? TTM the angel/damsel and QT the blenny with observation only (no copper)? All will get a dose of praz and metro regardless of the ich treatment I use.

Thanks again for your help!

 

[william.sting]

I would hold on copper until you have an actual disease to treat as copper it's far from benign and has a low margin for error.

Also read my posts to this thread:

https://www.reef2reef.com/index.php?threads/375383/

Specifically the last in this five part series on advanced aquarist.

https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/3/mini

 

[Steve1500]

Thanks Mr. Sting! The Advancedaquarist article was enlightening, especially the TTM section. Do you know of a good source for the Beta 1, 3D glucan that he mentions...something more suitable for the aquarist vice for human consumption?

 

[blkhwkz]

I would treat them with CP, but if you do not have that, then I would treat all 3 with chelated copper. Given some of the issues with Coppersafe discussed recently, go with Copper Power. There is to much velvet going around for me to wait for a disease to show up. All fish get CP/copper and prazi as part of my QT process.

 

[Big G]

Velvet is rampant in the industry these days; TTM does not eradicate velvet. A cycled QT with good biological filtration, good food rich in protein and vitamins, and raising the copper to therapeutic very slowly 7-8 days, in multiple small doses AM, lunch, PM, works for me.

 

[Deinonych]

Personally, I am not a fan of treating with copper (reasons here) unless absolutely necessary (e.g. velvet symptoms being present). I advocate TTM with praziquantel (Prazipro) treatments on transfers 1 & 3, followed by a minimum of 2 weeks observation to make sure additional pathogens are not present. I also like to give new acquisitions a couple of weeks to settle in and feed regularly before doing TTM.

 

[william.sting]

I set up a temporary at holding area separately for each animal. I have a Kaldnes reactor in line on my main display. I take a portion of the media and use it to set up a small reactor on the qt tank. With this set up the new fish enjoys the immediate benefits if an established biological filtration system. I've never been able to measure ammonia or nitrite.

The qt can run indefinitely. I normally go 60 days since the set up is stable from day one. If no illness presents, I don't transfer tanks and I don't treat. I'd say 80 percent of the time I don't need to. If a parasite without an intermediate host presents (simple life cycle), I will get a histology bases diagnosis and then select a treatment protocol for that particular disease.

I used to be much more aggressive, and my loss of fish ed much higher. It has been a long time since I've lost an animal in quarantine.

The next time I encounter Cryptocaryon Irritans or Amyloodinium ocellatum, I will double check the latest research and then will likely try an anti-malarial agent. At this point, it seemed to me that Chloroquine phosphate has a better safety profile and a higher cure rate that the other medication options.

I understand that no one wants to introduce a diseased to their main display. I try to prevent that with a longer quarantine and careful observation rather that treating for a disease that the animal might be carrying.

 

[melypr1985]

I'll say that all three of those fish do fine with copper in most instances. They should also be fine with TTM, though of the three the blenny will probably have the hardest time with it.

 

[4FordFamily]

I'll say that all three of those fish do fine with copper in most instances. They should also be fine with TTM, though of the three the blenny will probably have the hardest time with it.

Yeah I’ve not found flame angels or any centropyge to be sensitive to copper, I think this assertion was made in error, IE they die in quarantine a lot. This is due to an immense sensitivity to ammonia, and high oxygen requirements- especially in quarantine for some reason. Minute amounts will dust a centropyge. I believe this is why people thought copper was the culprit. Some of my hardiest fish in copper have been tangs and angels. Copper power is the best choice, IMO. Reliable and simple.

Velvet is everywhere today, as @Big G said. This is not the environment we knew even 5 years ago. Everything is kept in low level copper levels, masking symptoms. The fish sharing water through the distribution system and the sheer number of tanks they’ve been exposed to almost guarantees its presence, especially if you buy a batch of fish. This isn’t a gamble I’d take, velvet management is largely nonexistent.

 

[Steve1500]

Wow, there are obviously lots of ways to skin a cat. Thanks to all for the great info you have provided me and others on R2R.

For me, I think it boils down to two things: Risk tolerance and physiological effects of each of the methods described. After reading Deinonych's referenced article, it drives me to try another method such as CP or TTM. If I cannot obtain a CP Rx from a vet, I am going to TTM the fish and then monitor for velvet etc. From everything I have read, CP does not have an adverse effect on most fish (blue tangs, wrasses excluded). As for TTM, Mr. Sting pointed me to a good article on how to lessen the stress impacts of this method.

So two more questions: Do blennies have a lower probability of obtaining ich? And, any words of wisdom on talking to a vet about getting a Rx for CP? I don't have any other animals so I don't know any vets.

Much appreciated,
Steve

 

[william.sting]

I've read most of the article that Deinonych provided the link to. Copper is toxic. Period. Yes, most fish survive treatment. Kept under good conditions, most survive without treatment too. Surviving a treatment doesn't mean a treatment is harmless.

From the above referenced source written by Roy P. E. Yanong from the University iversity of Florida:

"However, the copper concentrations required for effective treatment may be acutely toxic for some species of finfish and are lethal for most invertebrates. Chronic copper exposure will also adversely affect fish health. Sublethal and toxic levels of copper damage gills and other tissues of fish, and also are known to depress the immune system. Because of all these concerns, it is important to understand how copper works and how copper availability is affected by the environment in which it is used (Cardeilhac and Whitaker 1988)."

Here is a nice review of some of the research concerning copper toxicity in a saltwater environment:

Physiology is pivotal for interactions between salinity andacute copper toxicity to fish and invertebrates

By M. Grosell a,∗, J. Blanchard a, K.V. Brix b, R. Gerdes a.

I found the pdf available for free from the University of Miami

I've seen research showing that Chloroquine phosphate is a safer and more effective alternative to copper. Is anyone aware of a controlled study showing the opposite?

 

[4FordFamily]

IMO these facts of copper being toxic are a moot point if you’ve dusted all your fish to velvet/ich.

Many meds and foods we consume are technically toxic or deadly, we are suggesting a one time treatment for a longer healthier life.

To each their own, this is merely my .02

 

[Deinonych]

IMO these facts of copper being toxic are a moot point if you’ve dusted all your fish to velvet/ich.

Many meds and foods we consume are technically toxic or deadly, we are suggesting a one time treatment for a longer healthier life.

To each their own, this is merely my .02

My concern is prophylactic treatment with copper when no symptoms of disease are present. Obviously, if an active velvet infection is indicated, it must be treated if the fish is to survive.

 

[william.sting]

My concern is prophylactic treatment with copper when no symptoms of disease are present. Obviously, if an active velvet infection is indicated, it must be treated if the fish is to survive.

I agree completely.

For me I consider the risk and proven effectiveness of a given treatment relative to other options. In the past. I've used copper countless times with success on freshwater fish.

My experience with copper on marine fish hasn't been as good for reasons detailed in the above write up by Yanong.

At this moment Chloroquine phosphate looks to be safer and more effective, but I am literally looking through some papers this morning to check that conclusion.

 

[4FordFamily]

My concern is prophylactic treatment with copper when no symptoms of disease are present. Obviously, if an active velvet infection is indicated, it must be treated if the fish is to survive.

I understand the contention, and if fish weren’t exposed to the same systems of water throughout the distribution system, nearly guaranteeing ich or velvet, I would agree. But, with thousands of fish moving in and out several of these week by week and no fallow period or proper eradication, the odds of infection are immensely high.

This continues to worsen velvet is MUCH more prevalent today than it was even 3 years ago. Every batch of fish I’ve received over the past 3 years has had ich or velvet. Even single fish orders. I’ve also quarantined for several of my local fish club members and friends, @HotRocks to name one.

I’d rather risk harm to new fish than risk my entire DT of fish. Fish like wrasse can harbor even velvet with symptom for 30-60 days, even months due to their sleeping habits (mucous cocoons, sleeping under the sand) and their immensely thick slime coats. Very effective Typhoid Mary. In addition, with low levels of copper throughout the distribution system being commonplace, this can slow velvet from showing for 30 days or more, giving people false hope that their fish is parasite-free.

I wish CP were more easily obtained!

Again, just my .02!

 

[william.sting]

I agree completely.

For me I consider the risk and proven effectiveness of a given treatment relative to other options. In the past. I've used copper countless times with success on freshwater fish.

My experience with copper on marine fish hasn't been as good for reasons detailed in the above write up by Yanong.

At this moment Chloroquine phosphate looks to be safer and more effective, but I am literally looking through some papers this morning to check that conclusion.

I corresponded with professor Yuang this morning to see if he could direct me to research addressing the question "which treatment option is better" between copper and chloroquine. Unfortunately, no such study exists, and he had veterinarian colleagues at major public aquariums that fall into both camps.

Based on this, I'd say that a reasonable person might conclude that neither treatment option is clearly superior. If you fall into the copper camp, I'd suggest being fully familiar with the information contained in:

Use of Copper in Marine Aquaculture and Aquarium Systems1 (FA165)

that he wrote.

It can be found here:

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/m/#publication?id=FA165

and is available in both pdf and html.

Good discussion all.

 

[william.sting]

Truly a sad state of affairs. Sounds like I've been quite lucky overall.

It's a shame the industry is being so careless in this regard. It reminds me somewhat of the widespread use of antibiotics in the food industry. From a business standpoint I can understand deciding to use them.

Of course if I become one of the 23,000 Americans that contract and subsequently die from a multiply resistant strain of bacteria I might feel differently. At least until I died that is.

It's not like eradicating the organism from the distribution system is inconceivable. It's just that when consumers are so understanding when they receive sick animals, why bother.

I suppose it shouldn't surprise us that there are strains of these parasites that can survive copper levels that our fish can't.

Where to start...?

 

[william.sting]

One last reference I came across in advanced aquarist in 2013:

Aquarium Fish: Chloroquine: A "New" Drug for Treating Fish Diseases

By Jay Hemdal

https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2013/2/fish

He covers correct dosage and treatment using this drug. There are some diseases that only respond currently to CP, so it's worthwhile to keep this information in your reference library.